In this episode, we explore the intersection of sexuality and spirituality with Somatic Sex Educator Monica Kovacs (@integrativesexcoach). Monica’s work is heavily influenced by Eastern wisdom traditions including Tantra, yoga, Taoism and various shamanic roots. From the Western side, she draws from the teachings of depth psychology, eco-spirituality, and the pioneering works of bodywork teachers such as Peter Levine, Bessel Van der Kolk, Joseph Kramer, and Caffyn Jesse. We also delve a little bit into Monica’s personal journey. She believes that bodywork is linked to spirituality and that we can access profound healing power through our bodies. Her work is trauma based and client-centred. Her mission is to hold space for clients and offer them tools that cultivate the foundation for a more vibrant life, one that embraces joy and authenticity – a soulful living.
Highlights:
- Embodied Spirituality
- Tantra Sex
- Somatic Sexual Education
- Failure of Sex Education
- Learned Anxiety during Sex
- Mindful Masturbation
- Sexuality and Creativity
Resources:
- 3 minute game by Betty Martin
- Urban Tantra: Sacred Sex for Two in the Twenty-First Century by Barbara Carrelles
- Mantak Chia, Daoist Qigong Master
- Women’s Anatomy of Arousal by Sheri Winston
- Erotic Massage for Healing and Pleasure by Caffyn Jesse
- Sexological Body Workers
- Somatic Sex Educators
- The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Listen:
Monica welcomes inquiries by email at integrativesexcoach@gmail.com
Original Poem by Thal, Inspired by This Episode
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Adrian
Monica, welcome to the show.
Monica
Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Thal
Hi. Hey.
Adrian
Yeah, we’re really excited to start this conversation with you. I think there’s so much we can we can cover because a lot of your work I feel is super relevant to today’s time in society. Um, particularly as I was driving here, I was thinking about just the contrast of how digitally connected we are with our phones and devices, yet we are hyper disconnected with our bodies, right? We’ve retreated to often the thinking modes and sort of lost sense of our feeling bodies and this is a big part of your work and that’s why the excitement to introduce you and to bring you to a larger audience. So thank you for, for joining us.
Monica
Thanks for having me. I’m so excited.
Thal
Along those lines. Similarly, I was, uh, I went for a walk at the beach 10 minutes away from here and I was just thinking about vulnerability and sexuality and creativity, how we’ve become so disconnected from our bodies and so disconnected from our own creativity and not being able to just be who we are and be vulnerable. So, um, we are definitely excited for today’s topic. Yeah.
Adrian
So Monica, maybe, a good place for us to start is to just share with us what was your journey. I’m really curious what your journey was that, that led you to this field of working in sexuality and education. Um, so yeah, share a little bit about the path and how you got here and your interest.
Monica
Okay. Um, well I grew up in a very religious and conservative household. So the sex education that I received was that sex is only to take place within the context of a heterosexual marriage. Um, anything outside of that is wrong. Masturbation is wrong. Um, and there was a real, I remember the sense of heaviness in my community. Like if there was a couple who moved in together before getting married, there was a real sense of judgement about them, like they were doing something so horrible. I’m queer people and just remembering the conversations that my family would have and, and I’m just feeling as a child, like, why, why is this so bad? Um, and also knowing at a really early age, being aware of my own sexuality and I’m knowing that I’m queer myself and with a lot of kinky interests and desires and just thinking, oh my God, if my family finds out about this, um, this is not gonna end well for me. And so I had a really deep seated fear as a child about being authentic and who I am and, and being discovered and also feeling like there was something wrong with me because that was all I knew. That was the message that I was given growing up. So fast forward a bunch of years, I finally came out to my family, um, when I was 20, started dating women, um, started getting involved in really sex positive communities. So I was attending a lot of bath houses. And Fetish events and a lot of sexuality workshops and really just having conversations with people and learning everything that I could about sexuality and um, it just felt like coming home finally landing in these communities and breaking away from the way that I was raised. Um, there was a real sense of authenticity and just relaxing fully into who I am and I’m celebrating that and celebrating everybody else’s identities as well. Um, so I was having a lot of conversations with people about their experiences of sexuality and really learning and trying to understand everybody around me. Um, couple of years later I started studying Tantra and Daoist sexuality and other, um, ancient teachings that attempt to bridge the sacred and the sexual. And bring that together in a way that we don’t really understand in our modern society.
Thal
I just have a question, when you were at that young age, how did you reconcile that, you know, fear and are living with that fear?
Monica
Oh, at that age… I don’t know if I did. Um, there were so many emotions. I think it’s, it’s kind of difficult to encapsulate, um, you know, there was the shame and there was also anger at the oppression. Um, a lot of anger. I have a very rebellious streak in me that, that most people don’t see immediately because I tend to be, um, I tend to present to someone who’s very quiet, but there’s this quiet, am I allowed to swear on this podcast?
Thal
Oh yeah.
Monica
Okay. A lot of my teachers and therapists have pointed out that, that I carry myself with this very quiet fuck you, that’s just like, no, I’m going to do things the way I want to do things and I don’t care what you want from me. And that came through a little bit in my childhood too and just, um, you know, and realizing my identity and looking around me and looking at the values that I was raised with and just quietly being like, no, this is not for me and I’m not doing this and choosing my own path. But Oh, the fear, the fear, especially coming out, that was not a good story when that moment finally to come. Um, yes.
Adrian
So I, yeah, I get the sense that I’m seeing the transition, you’re going through this phase where now you’re starting to experiment and, and be part of new communities and you’re learning more about yourself. At what moment did that actually transitioned into a career, into a decision that, you know, this actually could be something I can do for a living and to help other people?
Monica
So that was a really funny story. And uh, if we have time for that, then I’ll tell the story. Um, so I was very involved in these communities, but I still had it in my mind that I was going to naturopathic college. Um, holistic medicine is also something that I’ve always been very interested in and I thought, you know, that would be a proper career. That would be a viable career and you know, something that my family would be proud of because again, they’re so conservative. So if I became a doctor then at least, you know, that little part of you that still needs acceptance from your family on some level. Um, I think it was that part of me that was really clinging to that choice. Um, so a friend of mine passed away and I was in this deep state of grieving. Um, and there was another friend of mine on facebook who is advertising this retreat with Jonathan Goldman. And um, for those listeners who aren’t familiar with Jonathan Goldman is a sound healer. Um, I have a background in music so I’ve always been really interested in his work. So I thought, oh great. He’s advertising this retreat with Jonathan Goldman. Like this is something really nice I could do just to get away for a weekend and I’m kind of cope with some of the grief that I was going through. So because it was through my friend, I literally just clicked and paid without reading anything about what I was signing up for
Thal
That’s amazing. Beginner’s mind.
Monica
So the organization contacted me and they told me that there’s another woman driving down from Toronto and um, do I want to get in touch with her so we can share, share a car rental and share room and board. When we get there and I said, sure. Um, so the day of this woman rolls up to my place in a car, I get in the car with her, I have no idea who she is and we just get in the car and we start driving. Um, and we arrived and when we were an opening circle, the guy next to me, it was just asking, so what brought you here? Like, what got you interested in this? So here’s me going on and on about like sound healing and music. And he’s like, Oh, you’re here to see the other Jonathan Goldman. I was like, what? And he’s like, there’s two of them, didn’t you know? And I’m like, no, what do you mean there’s two of them. And he’s like, well, this is the other Jonathan Goldman and well, who’s he? So the other Jonathan Goldman walks in and he’s a medium and he sits down and we’re sitting in opening circle and he starts channeling and he literally, he’s looking around the circle and making eye contact with everybody stops at me and says, no one is here by accident. And I was like, okay, open mind for the rest of the weekend, like I’m in, let’s see what this weekend has to teach me. And I got a lot out of that retreat. But the most important thing that I got was the conversations with my roommate, with this woman who I met on the ride down. She was a career coach and because we were sharing a room and um, you know, spent several hours driving, we really had an opportunity to exchange life stories and, and get to know one another. And she sat me down at one point and she was like, you know, you could go into naturopathic medicine but you’re going to get bored because you’ve gotten bored of everything else. And the one thing that, that creates a sparkle in your eyes when you talk about it as sexuality and that’s really the field that you need to be in. And I was like, okay, but how do I make that into a career? I just, I had no idea. So she was the first person who introduced me to surrogate partner therapy, which is something that she had considered herself. But then decided against it, so I’m surrogate partner therapy is a little bit different from what I do. Um, but it was something that appealed to me, so I looked into it and there were no trainings available at the time. So that’s how I ended up in somatic sex education. That was the next closest thing that I could find. And when I came back from that weekend I was like, whatever. I’m doing this, just whatever courses are available, I just, I finally made that decision that this is my calling, this is what I’m meant to be doing. I just need to soak up every ounce of information that’s out there.
Adrian
Okay. So you used the term somatic sex education. Is this like a certifying… official label? What did they teach you in? What is it, what do they do?
Monica
Um, so there are numerous programs worldwide in Canada. It’s called somatic sex education. In the states, it’s actually referred to a sexological body work. So technically I did my training in the states in San Francisco at the Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. Um, and the programs vary a little bit country to country, so, um, I believe each country has its own governing body, uh, with very similar principles so we have a code of ethics, um, you know, a certain way that we’re supposed to be with clients and um, you know, deciding what, what services we provide and what services we don’t provide just to create a safe atmosphere for clients where they know exactly what they’re coming in for and also if there are any violations against that or if clients have any complaints, then there’s an organization that they can go to to raise those concerns.
Thal
What happened after that?
Monica
So I immediately signed up for the training in San Francisco and I went down and did that and it was pretty life changing. And as soon as I came back I just started practicing and I haven’t looked back and I’m so excited each and everyday to be doing this. I’m so grateful that things turned out the way that they did and that I stumbled upon this.
Adrian
So Monica, up until this point, I’m still having a hard time knowing or understanding what is it exactly? So what, what are people coming to you for with this training?
Monica
So it’s body based sex education. Somatic, it refers to Soma, the body, um, but actually more than the body, so the word ‘Soma’ in Greek refers to the body-mind, which is what we’re beginning to discover in modern neuroscience that, you know, our mind is not just in our brain, it’s throughout the entire body, throughout the nervous system and various emotions that we feel can manifest in the body or can be stored in the body and any type of somatic work explores that relationship and the relationship between how we breathe and how we carry ourselves and how that impacts our state of mind and impacts other things that occur in the body such as sexual arousal. So it’s a wonderful modality to, for people to explore that on an experiential level. Unlike talk therapy or one would just go and discuss whatever issues that they’re having around their sexuality with somatic sex education. There is opportunity for hands on work and for receiving touch, so clients get to experience new things in session and rework that on a nervous system level. What are some of the common reasons people are seeking you that they’re bringing to the table a lot of anxiety and anxiety, interfering with the way that people experience their arousal. So, um, whether that’s through lack of an adequate education as they were growing up, um, having trauma or other negative experiences that shaped how they’re feeling today and trying to rework that and create a more whole and empowered sense of themselves working out consent and boundaries and figuring out more empowered ways of negotiating that.
Thal
And in many ways that plays into sex education. And, um, uh, you know, that’s, I think that’s one of the questions that we had in mind was how do you feel about, you know, maybe that’s a big question, but how do you feel about sex education out there? A lot of the ways that we were taught sexuality is in with fear and wrapped with a lot of misconceptions and, and um, and morality is usually used as a tool to pathologize just normal human need.
Monica
I think our sex education today, early sex education in school is still a very inadequate. The one common factor that all my clients have in common. I’m on my intake form. I always ask people what was your sex education like? And to this day nobody, nobody has come to me saying, I had a great sex education where I felt adequately informed for my first sexual encounter. And I was taught about consent and pleasure and communication and I was never shamed about my sexuality when I was young. Nobody’s ever said that. And that’s horrifying to me. It is. Yeah. That our education is still based around biology and fear. All people are being taught is basic mechanics. This is how it works. This is what your biology and physiology looks like and here’s how to avoid sti is and not get pregnant.
Adrian
Um, sounds like it’s just damage control. These are the biological reasons we do it and that’s the end of the conversation.
Monica
Yeah. And it’s also not very inclusive either of Queer people, Trans people, non binary folk, you know, kink. Any other preference that doesn’t fall within the Hetero normative standard, um, that’s not taught either. So young children who are already beginning to experience that, um, again, it becomes reinforced for them that they’re somehow different or outsiders and it continues to pathologize those experiences and people just aren’t being taught about how to create pleasure and intimacy and how to create experiences that are really mutually nourishing for everybody involved. And it’s so unfortunate. People are just expected to somehow know that automatically. Um, and because we don’t, we’re not born knowing that it’s a process of discovery. People can either discover that through self pleasure, which again is discouraged and a lot of households and a lot of children are shamed for touching themselves. So they either learn to do it in secrecy where their sexual experiences associated with a lot of anxiety and in their body there’s, there’s a holding pattern of tension and shallow breathing because they’re just trying to finish fast enough so that they don’t get caught by their parents or other family members and then it becomes wired into their bodies that way. Or some people just stop exploring period. And then when they come to me, they have no idea. I asked them, do you describe some of the things that you enjoy and they just don’t know. So we need to start exploring together.
Adrian
I imagine… You mentioned that one of the common reasons people are coming to you is to deal with their anxiety around, you know, their sex life. Um, so they’re already coming to you anxious. I see that as one of the biggest challenges you have. How do you create that space where they feel comfortable going into something that is very personal and sharing. And so how do you create that sort of therapeutic trust?
Monica
Well, one of my top priorities as a practitioner is to create a space where people can talk to me about literally anything, um, and to know that they’re not being judged for that and that I’m completely accepting and um, they’re witnessing what their experience is and holding space for that. Um, so we often start with some breathing exercises just to help people get into their bodies and start feeling their bodies again with anxiety and with sexual shame comes a lot of dissociation where people just start living in their heads and they’re not actually feeling what’s going on in their pelvis and their genitals in their feet and the rest of their body. So we might start with a body scan or maybe some qigong exercises or some yoga exercises just to start building that connection. Um, and then slowly and slowly, depending on where the client is at. Bodywork is an option in sessions, but it’s not necessary. So some of my clients prefer to do several sessions where we just talk or we do meditation and breath work together. And then other clients are just, you know, rip off the bandaid all in one go, let’s get on the table and let’s do body work so the body work could involve any degree of touch, it could be clothing on or clothing optional for the client. As a practitioner, I always stay fully clothed and they can receive touch anywhere on their body and this is always negotiated beforehand and done with the client’s enthusiastic consent, so we might break it up into the context of an exercise where I’m, I might have the client ask for a certain kind of touch and then we set a timer for a couple of minutes and they practice something as simple as actively receiving that touch and staying connected with their body and soaking that in. Being mindful and aware of the pleasure rather than dissociating and noticing the monkey mind when it starts going into, oh my God, should I be doing anything? Am I doing this right? What’s gonna Happen Next? And all those usual thought patterns that people don’t go into when they’re having sex.
Adrian
When you see that happening, so you see them starting to disassociate and leave their bodies because of anxiety, what does that look like? How do you take note of that and what do you do to bring them back into, into the immediate present body?
Monica
I try to stay very aware of people’s breathing patterns. So if I notice that their abdominals are clenching up in their breathing is becoming very shallow, maybe their forehead might become a bit contracted and they’ve got that thinking face on. Maybe their eyes are closed or they’re looking off into the distance. I might pause and say, what’s happening for you right now? Like, you know, are you in your body? Um, is there an emotion coming up? Are you, are you lost in thought? You know, just keep me. Yeah. Just give me some feedback on what you’re experiencing and, and let’s invite your consciousness back in and reconnect.
Thal
How long does it take for a typical client to come out of their shell?
Monica
Um… generally I work with people have between say three and 15 sessions depending on the individual. Um the body work, it tends to be very direct and work quickly. So unlike psychotherapy where a client may go for years and years with somatic work, it tends to be, um, a shorter period of time. And also one of my priorities is building up a sense of confidence in the client as quickly as possible so that they can have the tools and go and use them in the outside world and not develop any sort of dependency on the practitioner, especially because the intimate nature of the work, um, you know, staying in this kind of work for too long can potentially create. How do I want to phrase this? I don’t want to create any sort of dependency in the client. So that’s why my priority is to teach people skills and just send them out.
Adrian
Monica, you must get a whole range of myths, misconceptions, misunderstandings of what it is that you actually do. You know, maybe your friends o people that are around you, when they ask questions, when they’re genuinely curious, uh, what are some common ones, the common ones that you hear that you would like to clarify?
Monica
Most people are super excited when they hear about my work because they haven’t known that this existed. And so people I find come in with a blank slate. They don’t really have any misconceptions because they didn’t even know that it was out there. Um, and I usually get a pretty positive reception. Um, a lot of people feel that it’s necessary and it’s time for this work to be moving out into the mainstream. Um, so yeah, excitement is the usual response and curiosity. And I just want to add, there’s a lot of catharsis that happens in the sessions quite fast in the progression of things. Um, tears… almost everyday when I see clients, when they’re receiving a certain kind of touch and they really tap into the grief that they’ve been carrying around that area, whether it’s through past trauma or something that they’re not receiving, or not able to access currently and when they finally do access it in the session, there’s so much emotional release that happens. And through that and through tapping into the new experience and holding onto that and practicing that, it creates completely new possibilities for them in the future.
Thal
Definitely that opens the doorway to intimacy and vulnerability and even knowing oneself and connecting with oneself. How do we, um, you know, become more intimate with ourselves. How do we become intimate with others?
Monica
One of my favourite subjects to talk about with clients is creating a mindful masturbation practice because for many people, masturbation is not mindful. (That’s amazing. I just love watching your faces) But it’s true! You know, I’ve interviewed a lot of people over the course of the years on how they masturbate. And oftentimes, unfortunately it follows the path that they began taking as a child where it becomes very quick and there’s a degree of dissociation, they’re just eager to get it done. Perhaps it’s triggered by anxiety. So it’s just this quick fix and it’s not a practice that they’re really connected to and connecting with themselves through. Um, so this is a game changer for most people to approach it as valuable me time, especially if they’re not partnered at that time and that’s one of their only outlets to really start cultivating that relationship with themselves and going on a journey of self discovery. So learning something new about the body everyday, trying different things, exploring different sensations and being aware of your body as you’re doing that, not tuning out. Um, and fantasy and porn are fine. I’m not against those things. However, they, they can have a dissociative quality if we’re not mindful about how we engage with them. So if somebody is just focused on a screen, they can forget how they’re breathing or what’s happening in their body. So it’s, it’s good to practice moving back and forth between those states of awareness. Maybe look at the screen and enjoy what’s on the screen, but then tune in with yourself and notice what your experience is and, um, perhaps how you can breathe deeper, to enhance sensation, how you can relax your body or tuning into how your body wants to move in that moment and then go back to the screen.
Thal
That’s amazing. That adds a whole new other level to loving yourself.
Monica
Yeah, yeah.
Thal
Yeah. And unfortunately, you know, a lot of times or um, actually, yeah, a lot of times people don’t like themselves. So how are you going to have a full sexual experience if you can, even if you’re not connected to your own body and, and you know, just in your head.
Monica
Yeah.
Adrian
I’m trying to see the connection in terms of your work and a broader, a broader population. How, how does this stuff connect with our lives outside of the bedroom? Because I know, I know intimacy isn’t just within the realms of a sexual relationship. I mean, I can see, you know, how it can bleed into other areas. Can you touch on that?
Monica
One of the things I often ask clients is how engaged they are with their sensuality outside of their sex life. So, um, do they enjoy eating their food? Do they enjoy taking a nice hot bath or hot shower or if they’re outside nature is such a beautiful way to connect in with sensuality. Are they able to take that time to enjoy feeling the sun on their face or even digging their hands into the dirt and just feeling things, touching things, smelling things. Most people are too busy for that and they’re constantly in this heady state where they might be rushing to work, you know, grabbing their coffee and then thinking about all the emails they need to send and just charts and numbers and goals and they’re in this very left brain way of being. And then when they try to transition into a sexual or erotic experience at home, they’re still in that goal oriented state where they’re not aware of their broad sensory experience. And it becomes really difficult and cumbersome to switch gears. So the more we can practice that outside the sexual domain, the easier it becomes to translate that. Um, people often try to approach sex like a project, like there is a goal, um, there’s something that they want to achieve and they’re always thinking about what’s next, what’s next? And..
Thal
Usually it’s like orgasm or that’s it.
Monica
Yeah. Yeah. And like that’s the biggest inhibitor of orgasm. When people get so fixated on that. And I know it’s the most difficult thing when I tell people to drop the idea of orgasm and to drop even the idea of a goal and just try to embody like, toddlers are so brilliant at this. When you observe them because they’re just engaged, like you give them finger paint or put them in a sandbox, they don’t have a goal. They don’t know what the fuck they’re creating. They’re just there playing around and you know, they’re like, okay, well this looks good here, or like, this feels fun, I’m going to try this. And they’re just in that present moment. They’re engaged with their senses. They’re not thinking they’re, they’re in the zone and that’s how we need to be in sex.
Adrian
It sounds like this education, a lot of it is a journey. It’s a return. It’s a return to that state, like you talked about this childlike qualities.
Thal
So, uh, we’d like to go back into your journey when you had mentioned you started reading a lot about, um, like wisdom traditions and sexuality. Uh, what are the things that, um, you picked up on?
Monica
One of the favourite, my favourite teachings that I received from Tantra, which was so contrary to my Catholic upbringing is that everything is sacred. And I love that because so many spiritual traditions attempt to classify things and separate things like, this is good, this is bad, this is sacred, this is profane. And I found that within the tantric philosophy, there’s room for every experience and for everybody it’s inclusive and nothing is left out of it. And it just, it makes more sense to me on an intuitive level. I am a very spiritual person in my personal life. You can find the divine anywhere even in practices like kink where you’re breaking rules and you’re engaged with taboo and things that the day world would consider dark. If you do that mindfully, if you do anything mindfully then anything can be a portal to the divine. It’s just about bringing presence and awareness to what you’re doing. And I really love that.
Adrian
It almost sounds like a contradiction, right? Because we live, we live in a culture where instant gratification, access to pleasure is at our fingertips from addictive TV shows to sugar. Um, and yet those that are on spiritual journeys, often these traditions might actually look at pleasure as a possibly, um, they encourage you to renunciate a lot of these behaviours. And I see you as falling somewhere in between those two extremes.
Monica
Well, tantras kind of like householder path because traditionally in spiritual communities, people who are really serious about their spiritual journey would go off and live in a monastery or live in a mountain. And it’s really easy to get enlightened in those places because if you’re alone on a mountain, nobody’s going to piss you off there. Um, there’s gonna be no hot person walking by who you want to have sex with. It’s really easy to maintain a meditative state. But as a householder, as they call it, in the tantric path or somebody who stays engaged with the regular world, there are a lot more challenges flying at you and it becomes this daily practice of how do I engage with this mindfully? So here’s the, this person who is triggering anger in me, how do I connect with my anger? How do I allow that to be present and continue to act? Um, you know, sexual arousal happens. We meet people who were attracted to and how do we dance with that arousal while still maintaining awareness, yet not pushing the arousal away and trying to make it go away. It’s much more difficult.
Thal
In many ways then you’re arguing that sexuality can be a tool in, in our spiritual progression as opposed to just, you know, having to remove ourselves and go into a monastic way of living. We can engage with the world and be fully alive, yet, be intentional and spiritual.
Adrian
What’s coming to me is the word permission.
Monica
Yes.
Adrian
I get this feeling that a lot of your interactions with your clients is really at the bottom of it, given them permission to experience, right, and in this context, it’s the experiences within an intimate sexual relationship, but probably deeper than that is just permission to feel right permission to be feeling a, perhaps sensations or emotions that have been repressed or they’re trying to run away from.
Monica
And to not be afraid of those experiences. Whatever that experience is, to let it be, let it be alive in their body. And when we create that space, things stopped festering. I found for myself growing up for the longest time, I was so conflicted about my sexual orientation because I was resisting it. There was fear, there was shame. I wanted it to go away. I was pathologizing myself and internalizing all the messages I was receiving from my family and my community. And the minute you let all of that go and just be with what is, it becomes so much lighter.
Thal
It’s letting go of the fear and it’s about authenticity. Um, however, there is also the other side of that where, maybe someone out there listening to this right now is in a place where it’s not safe to be fully authentic and so how to be with that, how to straddle both worlds?
Monica
That’s a tough question. Um, I have had several clients like that where they disclosed things to me where I’m the only person who is aware and nobody else in their lives knows about these things because it’s not safe for them to reveal that and even to have a space where they can talk about it and have one person who just says to them, you’re okay exactly the way you are. There’s nothing wrong with you that can have an impact. Um, but also it’s difficult. Um, I don’t necessarily have an answer as to what can be done immediately to alleviate that suffering. And I’m hoping on a larger scale, people doing this kind of work and other kinds of work around sexuality and inclusion and social justice will create a safe space for all people to be. Um, but we’re not there yet.
Thal
You know, it is a collective thing instead, it is a very tough questions as many as you had mentioned, but I feel like a lot of it is self acceptance. I think when people can just, to a degree, um, accept themselves then the fear that’s out there in the collective is no longer that pronounced as you had mentioned. Yeah.
Adrian
You work with some people that have had trauma you mentioned. So how do you work around that? How do you already work with that with people bringing in a lot of painful past experience into the present moment?
Monica
Well, a lot of somatic sex education works with the nervous systems, so we have what’s called a window of tolerance where people can maintain regulation and whenever they encounter anything that they perceive as too stressful, they can slip into dysregulation. So with survivors of trauma often that window of tolerance is quite narrow and they might not have had an opportunity to really discover where their personal boundaries are and to feel safe in articulating that. So we often start very slowly and working on that embodied level. So first I’m asking people to discover where that boundary is and I might have clients practice orienting themselves spatially in relation to my body and noticing where they feel safe, where they start feeling a little bit uncomfortable and to create that space around themselves so that they feel grounded….And let me just collect my thoughts here… Um, safe in the space that they’re standing in and then the next level of that might be working with embodied yeses and nos. So I might have them pull me into their space if they feel a desire for closeness or push me out of their space if they want to create more space around themselves and to say yes and no as they’re doing that and taking those actions with their body and to really feel the power in making those choices for themselves. So, um, that would be at a very basic level. And then moving forward from there to doing other kinds of touch based work where they might find that edge when they’re right at that the edge of their window of tolerance where they might feel like a little bit more and they could become dysregulated, but we use breathing techniques, different ways of holding themselves that encourage relaxation in the nervous system to help manage whatever fears and anxieties are coming up in that situation.
Thal
And do you give those clients any sort of homework or work to do outside of the session?
Monica
Usually, yeah. I usually send people home with quite an extensive list of practices for the week and it could be really simple things, um, maybe just to be more aware of how they hold themselves in public spaces. So on a subway, do they sit small or do they sit big? And to start practicing giving themselves permission to sit a little bit bigger and to take up more space and um, to not shrink away and to feel the power in their body as they’re taking up more space, especially for women on the subway.
Thal
That’s amazing. Yeah. That’s so true. And that’s just amazing. It’s so connected to what’s happening right now of their, you know, with all the me too and you know…just feeling….yeah, yeah.
Monica
Oh man. Some days I don’t even want to look at the news. I get so angry. And so one of the things I forgot to mention in my journey of how I came into this work was when I started studying Tantra with some teachers, um, I was introduced to this modality called qigong massage and I’m learning from teachers who had learned, who’d studied through lineage originally with a master in Asia. And um, this is when I really started practicing bodywork and this is a massage that involves full body massage, including genital massage and it’s based on Taoist Philosophy, qigong, which is a part of traditional Chinese medicine and based on the same energetic map of the body as one would encounter when they go for an acupuncture treatment. So for those listeners who might be more familiar with something like that, just to have an idea. So it’s a massage that targets pressure points at targets muscles, but also works with energetic centers in the body. And what I love about the Daoist tradition is that sexuality is included in all of this. So I’m in a lot of massage. The genitals are excluded, it’s taboo, you’re not supposed to go there. And there’s a lot of good reason for that too. Um, you know, there’s huge potential for abuse and violation, so it’s important that those boundaries are in place. And also it’s important that people can access these services if they choose in an environment where somebody is trained in practicing this. Um, so it works with pressure points on the genitals as well, and, and creating sexual energy and integrating that energy with the rest of the body. The Daoists have a lot of restorative sexual practices. Oh, and this is something that I want to touch on because I’m reading this really great book right now in preparation for another course that I’m doing in February. And it talks about these different levels of sexuality. So reproductive, recreational, restorative and transformational. And um, a lot of these Daoist practices focus on that restorative element of using sexuality to cultivate health, to cultivate energy in the body and to create a sense of wholeness and connection with the divine as well. So I’m just seeing how that massage was impacting the people I was practicing on was really inspiring and also a phenomenal learning experience for me.
Adrian
What kind of changes do you see in these, in these clients that you’re, that you’re working with, you talked about just not separating the mind, the body. I think we have a tendency just being conditioned by sort of western education to view the body and compartments. Mental, physical, emotional, sort of easier to maybe perhaps learn that way. But in reality and in practice, these things are all interrelated. They’re all connected. Um, so I imagine that when you’re affecting this one system, it’s affecting all systems. So what do you see as common changes?
Monica
It’s hard to pinpoint. People just walk around differently. They move differently in the world. When you fully land in your body, you have a much better sense of your boundaries in this space that you take up so somebody can embody much more confidence as they move through the world because they know that they’re able to articulate that and to hold that space for themselves and with sexuality, they’re also tapped into their creativity. Um, people tend to become more bold and to try more things and do more things and that’s really lovely to watch and to hear those stories from my clients when not only are they improving their sex lives, but they’re also getting out there and just doing more, doing all the things that they were afraid to do in the past.
Adrian
I’m just picturing your next workshop, you can market, “Mindful masturbation for increased creativity at work”.
Monica
I love that. That’s a great idea. But there is a connection though. When people are really tapped in and mindfully connected with their sexual energy, there’s a shift that occurs and you know, it’s not about masturbating. It’s about how we masturbate or how we make love to another person. You can do it on that reproductive level where it’s just an urge and you’re scratching an itch and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s one way of doing it and it’s also important to acknowledge the other possibilities that are available to us and to just create space for all of that and let people choose informed people.
Thal
It’s fascinating. Really see the connection between religious upbringing and secular separation of body and mind and in a way that they both instil fear. They both make people. I’m a lift sort of a shelled life. And as you said, take away from creativity and confidence really, is what it is at the end of the day. So it increases, you know, people’s confidence. Yeah.
Monica
Yeah. And you’re speaking to religion and I think the materialist worldview that so many people cling to in the west is simply another dogmatic manifestation…
Thal
Absolutely.
Monica
….have a dualistic way of conceiving mind and body. It’s not integrative. Um, there’s no space to bring sex and spirit together within that framework.
Thal
Monica, is there an example of an exercise that we can share with people out there that are currently stuck in their sex lives and are not really enjoying it or feeling it?
Monica
Yeah, one of my favorite tools to share with clients is called the three minute game and this is something that was developed by Betty Martin who has this amazing video series on her website called the Wheel of Consent. We’ll include a link at the end, um, because it’s absolutely life changing and I think everybody needs to watch this. So, um, let me just talk about the framework of this first to explain the context and how the game works. So what she did in this concept of the wheel of consent is uncouple the idea of giving and receiving with doing an action and being on the receiving end of that action. So most people equate the two and they think, okay, if let’s say I’m giving my partner a foot massage, I’m giving them something, I’m taking an action and they’re benefiting from that action in their receiving that action. So yes, that’s one way to conceive of it. But if you change that around and take somebody, let’s say with a foot fetish or somebody who really loves feet, they just really appreciate feet, love touching them and interacting with them. So they ask their partner, can I play with your feet? And their partner says, you okay, sure. Um, that’s something I’m okay with, but it’s not something that they maybe need in that immediate moment. So what’s happening there is that they’re allowing access to their body and the gift is for the person who is playing with the feet and they’re taking the action and they’re receiving the gift. Whereas the person who’s receiving the action is giving the gift. It looks exactly the same on the outside if you’re just an onlooker. But the intentionality in the flow of energy is completely different between those two people. So often where people go wrong is they might end up on the same side of the circle. So both people might be giving, let’s say, where they think that they’re doing something for the other person’s benefit. And because nothing has been communicated, both people end up giving and nobody’s receiving and nobody’s having a good time and people are just confused as to why and what went wrong. So this is a really great tool for taking that apart and really negotiating what’s happening. Who is this for? What are the actions that are going to happen here? Um, so with the three minute game, you asked two questions. One of them is how would you like to be touched and how would you like to touch me? And if two people both take turns asking each other these two questions, then both of them will have an opportunity to explore all four quadrants. So difficult to explain without an image. So one would be serving and accepting. So taking the action and I’m receiving the action for the benefit of the receiver and then taking an allowing where the person taking the action is receiving the gift and the person allowing is giving access to their body. So people get to experience all four quadrants of that and start noticing where they’re most comfortable and where they’re at least comfortable. So people might notice that there’s one quadrant that they really tend to gravitate to and all their sexual interactions and that they have a really hard time embodying another quadrant and making that clear helps them step into those other roles and create more confidence in being in those other roles and also communicating what each person wants to get out of that interaction. Making that really clear. So when you ask someone a question, let’s say, um, Adrian, like I’m asking you, how would you like to be touched for three minutes and you give me an answer I check in with myself to, as the person who’s serving to say, um, is that something that I’m comfortable giving fully with an open heart? And if there’s any part of that that I’m not comfortable in giving than I would negotiate that with you and say, well, maybe we could do this part of it, but this other part, can we change that a little bit? So that it’s within my boundary of consent as well.
Adrian
And so in practice, like in my head, I’m just playing an image of how this would look, you know, live, this game. Um, does it become a very formalized. Is there sort of a rigidity where it’s like, okay, you’re asking this question and this person’s answering, I’m picturing a boardroom meeting. Like I’m imagining it should be more playful in a more gamified setting. Um, but the core theme, to me, it sounds like is communication. Like being just very clear in terms of what you’re asking of your partner and also the receptivity to truly listen, to truly bring yourself to a place where you’re listening to what they’re actually asking of you.
Monica
And checking in on an embodied level. If this is something that you can fully participate in. A lot of people end up operating outside their own boundary of consent because they just haven’t been taught that it’s okay to say no where it’s okay to negotiate. And this is such an important skill to learn because once you stop, I’m going beyond your own comfort level in terms of consent. Then suddenly you know where that boundary is. It becomes safe to play. If boundaries are fuzzy, then there’s so much risk involved and that creates tension in the body. It creates anxiety if you don’t know where situation is going to go and whether or not you’ll be comfortable with that, then it becomes impossible to relax into it and to go with the flow. Yeah, and intense or your earlier question about a boardroom meeting versus playful setting. So in a workshop setting, usually the game is played just using hands and forearms. So it’s very nonsexual. It can be practiced with anybody. It doesn’t have to be with somebody who’s a sexual partner. Um, however, if there is comfort with the person you’re playing with, it could involve full body touch. So usually when I work with couples it would be a full body exploration and with people who are meeting for the first time, it would just involve hands and forearms.
Thal
It really boils down to the art of a conversation really, and listening and being vulnerable and engaging full body, really.
Monica
Listening with the body too. So when somebody makes a request of you, asks you a question, um, to notice when you’re thinking in terms of what should I do now, what does this person want from me versus feeling into your body? Is there tension? Is there contraction anywhere? Is there a sense of opening and melting? What does the body want in this situation? Is there comfort in the body in stepping into this?
Adrian
I kind of have a two part question here. I’m just recognizing that this is an emerging field. It’s young. And perhaps a lot of people are maybe learning about it for the first time right now. And so for those that are curious to explore working in the field, perhaps being trained, can you provide some resources and, or maybe some guidance as to where to start?
Monica
The Canadian training takes place in BC. Um, and they’ve really expanded on the program in recent years. The curriculum is phenomenal, highly recommend it. Um, there are trainings available and many other countries for international listeners, um, so we can provide the links at the bottom and um, it’s really for anybody who sexually openminded that’s who this training is for somebody who is comfortable and curious and looking to expand on their own boundaries, um, and passionate about creating that space for other people. It’s a great opportunity for that.
Adrian
And maybe if you’re not interested in perhaps being trained in it, but just for your own exploration, are there any helpful books that you often recommend the clients?
Monica
Oh, so many. I have a really extensive book list on my resources page on my website, which we can also provide a link to. Um, I love Mantak Chia, who is a Taoist teacher and has written many books about Taoist sexology. Sherry Winston’s Women’s Anatomy of Arousal is great, very enlightening for a lot of people with vulvas. Um, off the top of my head. Urban Tantra by Barbara Carrellas is another great one. Um oh man. Oh, Caffyn Jesse! One of the teachers of the Canadian program has written numerous books on erotic massage, on the science of sexual happiness. Those are all links to those on my website. Definitely check those out.
Thal
That’s, that’s amazing. Um, I just want to end on a hopeful note. Um, I realized that this topic is, is very difficult and as we speak, there are people that are struggling right now. Stuck in their body, maybe stuck in fear. I’m not seeing the other side of, of life yet. Um, what kind of words do you, do you want to leave them with? What kind of advice? Because it is, it is a heavy and difficult topic that we’re trying to tackle today.
Adrian
Yeah, no pressure here. Right? What’s the final sentence?
Thal
The books and everything is amazing. It’s just we’re thinking about the person who’s stuck right now that, you know, listening. Like, “how is a book going to help me”, you know, just maybe a hopeful note?
Monica
Books are helpful. I would highly recommend finding a practitioner in your area. There are directories where you can find people worldwide. I’m getting in touch with a body work practitioner. It can be life changing. Just for people who feel stuck to know that pleasure is your birthright and pleasure is a possibility for everybody and even if you haven’t figured out how to get there on your own, it is possible. We’re all born with this capacity, so don’t give up on that search. It is available to you. It’s available to all and just that no matter how your eroticism manifests itself, you’re okay and you’re perfect just the way you are.
Adrian
Monica. I’m so grateful that you’ve helped us open up this topic of conversation. Clearly this is not the ultimate end of it, but uh, yeah, it’s no pun intended. It’s, it’s, it’s our pleasure to have you join us and be part of our journey because we are also curious and on our individual paths, but collectively I feel like this is sort of what’s drawing a lot of these, you know, these, these people together is sort of the shared humanity, you know, in terms of recognizing the messiness that is the human experience and we need to create more space for these more difficult conversations because they seem to be lacking in society right now.
Thal
Absolutely. We are truly grateful for what you shared with us today. Thank you for being open and vulnerable and, and generous. Really. Thank you Monica.
Monica
Well, it’s been such a pleasure being here and thank you so much for having me and for being bold enough to tackle this subject with me and I hope it was a benefit to your listeners and yeah, just really honoured to be doing this work and if anyone has any questions, feel free to reach out to me. We’ll provide my email at the end and thank you again so much once again for having me.