Relying on our human will can only take us so far. There comes a time in our life when we have to surrender the mind and allow the soul’s path to unfold naturally. On this episode, we explore the unseen powers of nature with Isa Gucciardi. Isa has spent over 30 years studying spiritual, therapeutic, and meditative techniques from around the world. She has worked with master teachers of Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism and Sufism, as well as expert Shamanic practitioners from the indigenous traditions of Hawaii, North and South America, Siberia, and Nepal. Isa is the creator of Depth Hypnosis, a therapeutic modality that integrates elements of Shamanic journeying and Buddhist meditation. She guides us through a live Depth Hypnosis journey during the interview *please don’t follow this part while driving, for obvious reasons*. She is the co-founder of the Foundation of the Sacred Stream, a school for consciousness studies in California. They offer courses like Depth Hypnosis, Applied Shamanism, Buddhist Psychology and Integrated Energy Medicine. Isa is the author of two books, Return to the Great Mother and Coming to Peace.
Highlights:
- Experiencing Altered States at an Early Age
- Live Depth Hypnosis: Guided Power Retrieval
- Working with Plant Medicines in a Modern World
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Full Transcript:
Thal
Welcome to the show.
Isa Gucciardi
Thank you. So nice to be here.
Thal
Thank you. Yes.
Adrian
To start things off, we’d love to hear how your spiritual journey began. Um, any sort of particular orientation that you were brought up with that you might want to share with our listeners?
Isa Gucciardi
Well, I think my spiritual journey began as soon as I met trees. Um, I um, was very involved with nature when I was little. I lived in Hawaii and, um, you know, nature there is kind of in your face all the time, you know, you can’t kind of look away from it the way you can when you’re living in a place like New York City or something. And, um, you know, I spent a lot of time outside. I spent a lot of time, you know, with the birds, with the crabs, you know, with the wind. And you know, there was a real solace that I felt in nature. I felt, uh, you know, a real sense of connectedness that I didn’t feel necessarily with human beings. And I think that the question in my mind, arose very, very young, um, you know, how do we bring this peace that’s here in nature into the affairs of humans? You know, like from me, that was such a huge difference between the two worlds that I, you know, it was, it was really a question early on, how do we, how do we bridge these two worlds? So I think, um, you know, in terms of a spiritual tradition, it was definitely nature. That was my first set that offered my first set of teachings. I did, um, because I was in Hawaii and I had a lot of Japanese Hawaiian friends. Um, there were, um, of course the Buddhist temples that you find everywhere in Hawaii. And I used to, you know, try to arrive at my friend’s house just before I knew they were going to temple, so they would invite me. And I like the smell of the tatami mats and I, uh, you know, just love the smell of the incense and I didn’t really receive any particular teachings. They were, it was pure-land Buddhism, which is, you know, a pretty, um, you know, evangelical kind of Buddhism. But, you know, I didn’t know, I didn’t feel exposed necessarily to the teachings that were being offered there. It was more the Zeitgeist of the place, you know, the, the, just the, just the beauty and the, um, and the sort of energy around the Buddhist statues and the altar. The Altars were fascinating to me. And, um, and then the interesting, another interesting spiritual, but not, you know, again, not as powerful as nature was that I was sent to a missionary school. Um, and, and it was a Lutheran school. And the teachings there centered on Jesus as a healer. And, you know, this nice man who took care of the sheep, you know, it was like, you know, like you seem like such a nice guy, you know,I was, you know, and I love the idea that he could, he could heal people. Like that was like this amazing thing that he could put his hands.
Adrian
Sorry Isa we’re missing a little bit of the connection there. Um..
Isa Gucciardi
I don’t know, maybe I moved, are you there?
Adrian
Yes, yes. Yeah. Just the part about, um, uh, Jesus as a healer.
Isa Gucciardi
Yeah he could put his hands on someone and heal them. And it was, that was enthralling to me that, that, you know, that miracles could happen, you know, and that kind of gave me hope, you know, from my idea that, you know, maybe there was going to be some kind of a bridge between nature and human activity that, um, could help people. So those are sort of my early influences. Um, all of them kind of, you know, very independent and, you know, I didn’t have like, again, a lot of proselytization or anything like that. There was no kind of orthodoxy that I had to adhere to or anything like that.
Thal
And so from your earlier experiences with um, uh, nature and this sort of open state of spirituality, how did you first get interested in altered state and shamanic journeying?
Isa Gucciardi
Well, you know, the whole thing about altered states was, um, there was something that was started happening when I was quite young, where I would suddenly kind of be in another reality, you know, and I didn’t talk about this with anyone because I really didn’t know how to talk about it. And I thought that it was normal. Um, and you know, things would kind of slow down. The different light would come and then I would be in sort of connected through nature, you know, it would always happen in nature where there would just kind of be this expansion of awareness, um, this deepening of the peace that I already ….and the thing that I started realizing is that I seem to be more aware of things that other people weren’t aware of. You know, and it wasn’t really until, um, I encountered the theosophists, which I encountered pretty early on, probably around age 10 or 11, I found a book by, um, Blavatsky and, um, she was a channel and I started realizing, oh, maybe this is that, you know, and, and then there was this whole tradition of seances, um, that, that the theosophists were connected to and I thought, oh, that’s interesting. You know, like the, you know, so here’s this, here’s this, uh, sort of container that this thing is happening in. And then I remember, I, um, I had moved all around the world and, um, I came back to go to high school in New Jersey and the, there was really big thing back then. I don’t know if this still happens now, but everyone was always having slumber parties. And in the slumber parties they started doing seances. And I’m like, “Oh, I’m in!” You know, like, you know, it’s, uh, it’s so everyone would go around and, you know, they would, they would say, you know, like they would channel something or, you know, like, you know, and, and I just went ahead and did what I’d been doing in nature by myself for a long time. And there was, everybody started freaking out and I’m like, what’s going on? What’s wrong? You know? And, and I didn’t realize that everybody else was not really tuning into anything. And what I was tuning into was like super accurate for everyone. Like I remember this one girl asked me about her grandmother who had died and wanted to talk to her grandmother. And so I just kind of tuned in and found the grandmother and said all these things. And she started crying and freaking out. And I’m like, uh-oh, what did I do? You know? And, and then I realized, wait a minute, there’s something that other people can’t do, like other people can’t do this and there’s something that I am doing. And, um, and, uh, I, well, the good thing of that, I mean, she was freaked out. We had to calm her down, but the good thing was I became a hot ticket on the slumber party. Yeah.
Adrian
Do me do me! Do me next! [laughing]
Isa Gucciardi
I’d be like, yeah, you know, so, but, but it took me a while. I mean, that was kind of, you know, you know, not the most sacred set and setting for this sort of thing, you know, and, and, um, but my interest in altered states was, was always strong because of this early experience. And my interest in altered states increased over time as I really felt a further disconnection from the way in which people were expressing themselves and what they were saying and what they were actually thinking. You know, like, that was like really obvious to me, you know? And, and it was, um, you know, it was very disorienting. Like, it wasn’t comfortable. Like I didn’t, it made me feel really wary, you know, like that people could lie so much about something, you know, there’d be saying something that wasn’t true. And then thinking this other thing. And it made me feel, you know, like I really didn’t know what to do with all that and it was happening all around me and you know, I, and I didn’t really wound up spending, I mean I’m a very social person on one level, you know, like I like being with people. I think they’re interesting, I like helping people. Um, but I really had to spend a lot of time alone because there that disconnect was something that I was really trying to metabolize. And so I started really getting serious about exploring altered states of awareness. And I started meditating early on, you know, my Buddhist experience early on brought me back to zen and, um, you know, as a teenager and you know, exploring the altered state through meditation was, um, you know, of course very nourishing and yet there was always, um, this experience there I felt was a little stark, especially in Zen. Zen is quite stark. And I mean, I understand why they want to kind of have this kind of flat aesthetic so that you’re not distracted by external things. Like, I understand that the reason for it, but, um, it, you know, I, um, I had spent so much time with nature and with the beauty of nature and all of the changing forms internally of nature and I didn’t really buy into this idea that you shouldn’t have a lot of color and form and sound and light that could be part of the teaching. Right. And I, again, I understand the idea of having this stillness, this spaciousness, this depth of experience that does not contain a lot of other elements to it. And I certainly to this day, I have a practice of shamata, which is the essence of zen meditation where you’re really just focusing into the stillness and spaciousness. But I found it difficult to receive teachings actually. Like I could receive the teachings of the stillness, but if I had specific questions, I, you know, when I went into, when I was in nature as a child, I could ask the trees anything. I mean, they would give me all kinds of information and all kinds of teachings. And some of the most profound teachings I’ve ever received are from plants. And, um, so when I encountered shamanism, which I encountered actually because had moved around so much growing up, I first encountered it, um, it among the wechel ranch hands that took care of this ranch that I got sent to, um, when I wasn’t in school, uh, when we were living in Texas. So I spent a lot of time with those people and you know, they, they were really kind and they would show me, you know, what kinds of plants would you know, be needed for a specific, like if I had a cold or something, they would go out and pick plants with me and show me how to prepare them. And they taught me how to ride horses and they were just generally really kind. And I, and I started realizing these people are making the bridge between humans and nature. Like they were very integrated with nature and um, and the kindness and the sweetness of nature was within them. And that was a big deal for me. And, uh, you know, I tried to understand, you know, where’s this coming from? And they didn’t give me specific teachings in Shamanism, but there was always, you know, a wise, a wise man who would arrive and do ceremonies on the edge of the Mesa. And so I got very intrigued with that. You know, I was like, what is going on here? You know, and, um, and uh, and you know, there was, um, you know, just a real inoculation there. And later, I mean, just a few years later, I started studying pottery techniques. I was really fascinated with pit firing and, uh, the Pueblo Indians just north of that sort of in southern New Mexico, just north of northern Mexico where I’d been, um, that those people were very similar in some ways. Um, in terms of the potters were very connected to nature. You know, we would, we would dig the clay and, you know, we were making offerings to the land, thanking them for the clay. And I’ve got really drawn into shamanic practice like that. That was where it really started, you know, like through art, you know, through, through the exploration of the elements through pottery. I really got drawn into shamanic practice and started studying, you know, I had started studying a lot of different cultures already because I lived all over the world and I was really interested in the way that different cultures brought forward, different aspects of experience. And I really got interested in the way in which shamanic practice correlated with artistic practice in different cultures. And I started studying them more academically and actually got my first degree in cultural and linguistic anthropology and that, you know, cultural anthropology is really an academic study of shamanism. And, um, so I became exposed to the concept of the journey, the way of altering the state of awareness with song, with dance and with sound. And from me, the shamanic journey was just the most natural thing in the world. You know, like, I mean, I had already been doing it, you know, from, since I was two, you know. And I was really enthralled and I worked, um, you know, as a, you know, I mean, you know, I had been doing more and more work with my kind of quote unquote psychic capacities. I worked as a ground, for this pretty famous psychic and, you know, started doing a little bit of channeling on my own. And Michael Harner found out that I was a medium and asked me to do, I was a medium for him for many years and, um, wound up studying with him and he helped formalize some of the knowledge that I had received from working with all these different native Americans, um, in, you know, more of an artistic context but within shamanic practice and, um, that, you know, and then, but there was a way in which Michael was working with the journey, which I thought was, I thought it was great. You know, Michael is amazing person and we have to, we all owe him a great deal of respect because he was an anthropologist that wasn’t looking down on these little brown people that he was studying, which was the main thing that was happening in anthropology even, you know, up into the 70s. Yeah. So, um, uh, you know, I think, you know, the, you know, he was one of the first people who really, truly respected the people he was studying I think. And, or he said he did. You know, a lot of people didn’t say that. And um, so through, um, you know, so, so he, you know, he would teach the journey and you know, and it was interesting the way he was working with it. But in traditional shamanic practice, the journey is designed to establish a relationship with the unseen powers of nature. That’s what the journey is about. It’s a way of opening the worlds so that you can learn how to connect with the unseen forms of nature and then learn how to work with them in order to do things like divination or healing or a ceremony or conflict resolution. These are the kinds of uses that you might find with the journey in a traditional setting. But, um, you know, over time, you know, there was a lot that happened in between that experience and where I’m getting ready to go right now. But I, when I started teaching the journey, I really felt that we needed to work with the tools of the journey in a more modern way. Modern in that the modern psyche, you know, you’re talking about this crisis of meaning, you know, and I think it’s so wonderful that you’re focusing there. And I would love to talk about that forever, but, but one of the big issues with modern people is this crisis of meaning. And you know, you, you there, there is not within western culture, any kind of paradigm about spiritual evolution that is non dogmatic in nature. And, and you know, the real big problem with the spiritual education in the West is, you know, a big part of it is mediated by men who are hurting little boys and little girls. You know, like, so that’s a big issue. You know, there’s like the, the places where people might have gone for some kind of spiritual evolution, you know, really, you know, people could not trust anymore. And, um, and then you go to science with psychotherapy and there’s no discussion. You’re not allowed to talk about spirit. So people are coming with these issues, these crisis of meaning, the spiritual emergencies. And there’s nowhere to go. And, you know, I thought we should be working with the journey to help people understand how to deal with these issues, this sense of betrayal, the sense of loss, this sense of emptiness, this sense of abandonment that people feel, um, as a result of the families and the social structures breaking down that are supposed to support those kinds of inquiries to help people feel connected, whole, uh, useful, able to bring forward their gifts and have them received in a coherent way. You know, like that’s just not happening. So I had been studying Buddhism, you know, since a very young age and within Buddhist practice there is a very powerful form of the Vipassana Meditation that is sort of the next phase of meditation after Shamata where you have this focused inward, uh, attention into this stillness and the spaciousness. And once you attain that, you can then, if you choose, use that space of stillness and s and, and, and quiet to begin to use your mind in a form of inquiry into the nature of something. And this is Vipassana where you bring, this is one form of the Vipassana where you bring a particular issue in to that space that you’ve created and you allow your mind to open it through inquiry. And, um, I thought, let’s use the journey for that. Let’s ask questions that have to do with helping people come back to a sense of wholeness to a sense of meaning. And so we, I started developing this method of questioning that was more Buddhist in nature. Like what is, what is the nature of my creative source for instance, or what, what do I need to know about the relationship with my father in order to be able to form relationships with other men, right. In a whole way. Or, um, you know, what are the circumstances under which this fear that I have in the dark developed, right? So, so those kinds of questions are not the kinds of questions that are typically asked in a traditional shamanic practice, but they are the kinds of questions that might be addressed in a more kind of a broad minded Buddhist practice. So I combined the two. And so when we were teaching the shamanic journey within applied shamanism, it is designed toward personal evolution rather than toward only understanding the forces of nature and asking them to participate in the affairs of humans in a way that is beneficial, which of course I still teach that as well. That’s a big part of the applied shamanism program. But this use of the journey within applied shamanism is unique and I think it’s uniquely suited to the crisis that what you’re calling the crisis of meaning that we’re experiencing in the modern time. So that’s a really long answer to your question, how I become involved with the Shamanic journey. But there you go.
Thal
That was actually amazing. You just answered a few questions that we actually had lined up too in a linear fashion. So it’s just like, thank you. That was an amazing answer.
Isa Gucciardi
Oh, good. I’m glad. It’s helpful.
Adrian
Yeah. And just to see the combination of the, your exposure to Shush Shamanic culture and your Buddhist practice and that merging, you know, which is what I sense was the genesis of your depth hypnosis methodology. Um, could you share a little bit about what depth hypnosis is and perhaps what it’s not and what are some misconceptions people have when they first encounter that?
Isa Gucciardi
Well, the first misconception that people have is that it is not death hypnosis. People often think it’s D-E-A-T-H. It’s D-E-P-T-H hypnosis. And depth hypnosis is not stage hypnosis. Um, it’s not, one of the big issues with hypnosis is actually justified in that, um, people use hypnosis and a kind of performance kind of way to subjugate the will of another person as entertainment. And I mean, this could not be further from the purposes of depth hypnosis. And you find this even in clinical practice, you find hypnotists are drawn to hypnosis because they like the idea that they’re going to have power over someone’s capacity to move in and out of the different states of awareness. And I see this still, I see it frequently. Um, like at conferences, people get off on that idea and um, you know, if I’ve only had a couple of people come through my classes, I guess they didn’t read the fine print well enough thought they could do that kind of thing. And they lasted about an hour in class. Um, so, um, the, uh, the, the point of depth hypnosis is quite different in terms of alignment, which is that the depth hypnosis practitioner aligns with the will of the higher self of the person. They are serving, right? And so there’s this idea of service and it’s this idea of alignment with the highest good of the person that you’re working with. So you really are entering into a very sacred space when you’re entering into the inner world of another person. And with depth hypnosis, we really recognize and honor the privilege that we’ve been granted and work very hard to leave no traces. Uh, you know, I always say you never want to leave any footprints behind when you’ve been working with someone in an altered state. You want whatever their experiences to be felt by them to be arising from them and you want them to be engaged in such a way that they are empowered in the process and not passive. So that’s a big difference with depth hypnosis and other forms of hypnotherapy is that the clients are often passive and in depth hypnosis we seek to involve everyone in their process so that they are more empowered so that they are not depending on someone else ultimately to provide them with meaning about their experience, that they are discovering the meaning of their experience themselves. So this is, this is a very, very basic part of depth hypnosis in terms of orientation and how it is different from other forms of hypnosis. And other forms of hypnotherapy. Um, and then of course within depth hypnosis, there’s a hundred other things that make it different from other forms of hypnosis and hypnotherapy, which is Shamanism in Buddhism. Right? And also the integration of energy medicine, which is at the heart of both shamanic and Buddhist practice. And um, you know, it all takes its seat within the Western clinical practice in transpersonal psychology rather than in clinical psychology because in clinical psychology there really is not this idea that the participation of spirit is part of the therapeutic process. And of course in transpersonal psychology there is definitely the invitation toward the transcendent to participate in the therapeutic experience. And so depth hypnosis takes its place within that seat of western therapeutic practice because we are definitely always working with the transcendent and helping the person try to understand what their relationship is to this deeper place within them, where their deeper experience is held and that deeper experience is going to have the solution to whatever the symptom they are trying to address with the therapeutic process and working with depth hypnosis, helping a person move into an altered state of awareness generally through suggestions for relaxation helps them access that transcendent aspect of themselves that in Buddhism is called Buddha-nature. This aspect of the self that is compassionate kind wise or in Shamanic practice would be referred to as core power, the part of them that is connected to their creative sources in a powerful way. And um, and in through the connection with that part of the self, then the issues that lie in the symptoms that are creating problems such as fear of flying or binge eating or too much alcohol consumption or anxiety or kind of obsessive kinds of mental processes or chronic fatigue or any of the different layers or layers of experience that the symptoms might be manifesting on. They are assisted and brought to resolution by helping the person move into this altered state of awareness where they encounter this transcendent part of themselves. And then they also encounter the roots and sources of the symptoms that they have come into the therapeutic process to heal.
Thal
Um, so speaking of the experiential and practical side of things, um, I don’t know, are you open to maybe take us and our listeners through a live journey of depth hypnosis or a sample? A taste?
Isa Gucciardi
Sure.
Thal
Okay. Cool.
Isa Gucciardi
Do you want to do that now?
Adrian
Yeah that would be great!
Isa Gucciardi
Let’s, um, let’s do that process that I talked about where you’re connecting with your Buddha nature or in depth hypnosis, we call it the part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent. And the reason we use that phraseology is because it’s neutral, right? It’s like if somebody hears Buddha nature, they’re like, oh no, somebody is trying to proselytize me.
Thal
Yes, yes.
Isa Gucciardi
Or if they hear helping spirit, which is the words that are often used in Shamanic practice and connecting with Shamanic teachers through the journey, then they hear the word spirit and they get really allergic. Really fast.
Thal
Spooked out.
Isa Gucciardi
Right. Exactly. It’s good. Right. So we use this, this phrase, the part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent because that allows anyone to access the transcendent within them in a way that has meaning for them, right? So that’s what we’ll be doing right now. So just allowing yourself to get settled, noticing all the places where the surface do you meets different parts of your body. And as you do, just noticing where your breath is, noticing as you breathe in, where your breath goes. And noticing as you breathe out where your breath goes. And just becoming aware of the way in which your breath is like a bridge between your outer world and your inner world. And just allowing yourself with each breath to draw a bit closer into your inner world, into that place where everything that you’ve ever known or felt or sensed or dreamed or imagined is recorded. And as you come into this place, just knowing that we’re here today to connect with a part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent and which you may experience through any of your senses, or you may sense, for instance, hearing this part of yourself, you may see this part of yourself. You may feel this part of yourself and just knowing that it may take any form that has meaning to you, such as an animal or a plant, or a person, or a light or a sound, or a mythic or angelic being. And just allowing yourself for now, however, to just return to your breath and as you do, just allowing yourself to sense or feel or imagine that as you breathe in that you can draw a sense of relaxation that you may have noticed is a rising all around you and just allowing yourself on your next breath to bring that sense of relaxation up into your head and face. Just letting the muscles, your eyes and jaw let go of any tension they might be carrying and feeling that same relaxation flowing down into your neck and throat, down into your shoulders, your arms and hands. And on your next breath I’m wondering if you can sense or feel or imagine that same relaxation filling your lungs and just noticing how your heart feels is that relaxation flows throughout your chest, down into your belly, bathing all of your organs of digestion and elimination and reproduction in a soothing bath of relaxing energy and just feeling that same relaxation flowing down through your hips, down to your legs, all the way down to your feet. And on your next breath, I’m wondering if you can sense or feel or imagine that that relaxation has created a star or Sun at the base of your skull. And I’m wondering if you can sense or feel or imagine that star or Sun radiating throughout your mind, harmonizing your brainwaves and just noticing that is your mind. Relax. Your body feels even more relaxed and that as your body relaxes, your mind feels even more relaxed. And just noticing the connection between your mind and your body as you allow that relaxation to flow down your spine, vertebra by vertebra, relaxing all the nerves and muscles in your back, all the way down to the base of your skull, down through your bottom and down through the back of your legs, all the way to your feet again. And I’m wondering if you might notice now that you’re so filled with this relaxation that it could actually be coming out of the pores of your skin and surrounding you in a cocoon or a cloud of soothing, relaxing energy and as you feel supported in this way. I’m wondering if you can sense or feel or imagine there’s a staircase here before you and that staircase leads to the place within you where you’ll encounter this part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent and which you may experience through any of your senses in any form that has meaning to you. So just allowing yourself now as I count from 10 to one to travel along the staircase knowing that when we reach one you’ll be in the place where you’ll be very close or in the presence of this part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent. So 10 just finding your feet on the stair, noticing if the stairs made of wood or stone or some other material. Nine feeling your hand on something like a guard rail and a knowing that you have complete control over this process and that you can come back to the surface at any time if you’re uncomfortable for any reason, but seven knowing that you can actually go quite deeply because you do want to understand this part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent better. Six, just allowing all of your inner senses to open quite widely. Now five, your inner sense of taste, touch and smell, your inner sense of sight and hearing that especially that sixth sense of just knowing, allowing them all to open quite widely for as you focus now on a place perhaps in nature where you have felt comfortable and at peace. Three, knowing that you can trust the impressions that you’re receiving as you focus even more intently on this place, perhaps in nature where you felt comfortable and at peace. Two, knowing that you can allow your conscious mind with any doubt or fear to simply rest as you focus even more intently on this place. Perhaps in nature where you have felt comfortable and at and one, just allowing yourself now as you get to the end of the stair to step out into this place, this place perhaps in nature where you have felt comfortable and at peace and as you do just taking a deep breath and noticing the particular odour of this place and allowing that smell to bring you into even deeper contact with it. Noticing the quality of the light, listening for any sounds and just noticing if the wind is still on your cheek or if there’s a breeze and just letting yourself rest here. Noticing perhaps for the first time in a long time how much this place is a part of you and how much you’re apart of this place. Just finding yourself in that connection, resting, noticing all of the different qualities of this place. Just noticing with all of your senses, if there’s any particular aspect of this place that’s drawing your attention more strongly than others and just allowing your attention to be drawn to the place that’s drawing your attention most strongly and allowing all of your senses to move to that place. You may be being drawn to a plant or an animal or a light or a sound, or perhaps even a mythic or angelic being, or perhaps even a person or some other form that has meaning for you here and as your attention is drawn to that place, focus all of your senses there and ask this question, would you be willing to guide me and protect me? Would you be willing to guide me and protect me and listening knowing that you may receive that answer with any of your senses. You may hear the answer as a verbal message. You may experience the answer is a telepathic message. There may be a knowing or there may be some action on the part of this potential guide for you or there may be a change in the environment that would indicate the answer to this question. Would you be willing to guide me and protect me and as you receive this answer, if the answer is yes, you can simply become aware of the different qualities of this guide, the nature of its power, its personality, and if the answer is no, don’t worry. There’ll be another opportunity to connect. Just allowing yourself now to rest in this answer and just bringing this answer, this connection back with you. Now as you come back gently to the surface, I’ll count from one to 10 and as I do one, just allowing yourself to return along the same path that you came. Two, knowing that you can return here at any time. Three, and feeling the connection with this part of yourself that has only your highest good as its sole intent, growing stronger. Four, and deep. Five, with each number. Six, as you come back closer to the surface. Seven, feeling this surface under you. Again, Eight. And when you’re ready, just stretching a bit. Nine. And when you’re ready, just opening your eyes and 10 you’ll be back in the room remembering everything.
Thal
Wow. That was amazing. Thank you.
Isa Gucciardi
You’re welcome. And maybe just take a minute to review your experience so you can kind of integrated a bit and you know, your listeners may want to go ahead and write down their experience while it’s fresh.
Thal
Mm hmm. The thing that stands out for me is, um, for a moment I felt like different pieces of my life sort of came together and I, you know, I mean, I don’t want to interpret or anything, but just, just wanted to share that.
Isa Gucciardi
That’s wonderful. You might want to really explore that further. Yes, yes. And what the meaning of that might be. Um, because you know, one of the things that, um, you know, this is actually a Shamanic process. It’s an adaptation of the Shamanic journey. And you know, this is typical of depth hypnosis. What it does is it brings Shamanic and Buddhist and energy medicine and hypno-therapeutic processes into an everyday conversation so that people can access, um, deeper parts of themselves in order to heal more deeply. And what you just described, different parts of yourself coming together or different parts of your experience coming together. This, from a Shamanic perspective would be, an expected effect of a power retrieval and the shamanic journey is a power retrieval in that it is helping the person connect with power within themselves in order to be able to feel more whole. So you kind of just had that experience. Yeah.
Adrian
Yeah. Thank you. That was such a beautiful journey. I want to ask, because you mentioned, you know, even for listeners if they want to pause and take notes, what would you advise to do after an experience like that? Or maybe what would you advise against? Um, can you do it wrong? What, what, when, you know, in terms of beginner mistakes that when one starts to journey this way.
Isa Gucciardi
Um, well if you follow the, the, the process that I prescribed is this very hard to like do something wrong. Um, but one of the things that can happen, um, is that sometimes when people start to go inward for the first time, they may encounter issues that they had kind of been keeping it at arm’s length. And so sometimes people will feel a little anxious or something like that. And I always recommend when people start feeling that at the beginning of the process. If that happens for you, then you would, you know, one thing that I would say is let that anxiousness just rest for a little while because we are going to connect with a form of power that’s going to help you with that anxiousness. If you can just let it rest, you’re going to get some help with it. So if that happened for someone, you know, there’s a little bit of advice. And then in terms of, um, what would be the next, the next steps, you know, you probably need a little bit of guidance but you can connect back with that teacher. You can follow the same path that you took and you can ask a question. And, um, this is one of the things that we focus on extensively in the shamanic journey class is how to form questions and how to interpret answers. And, but for now, just try to stay with a one part question and that doesn’t begin with why. And, um, just go ahead and follow that same path back to this teacher. Ask Your question and then again, allow for the emerging of the answer in a variety of ways. Again, there may be a telepathic or verbal message. There may be a visceral experience. There may be an action on the part of the teacher and you may have to interpret it. Um, and I, you know, there is on the, on the website there’s going to be a class coming up specifically for distance learners. Um, we have time zone experiences that are suited for everyone around the world now and, um, that’ll be coming up in August, but we’ll also be teaching the Shamanic journey on Pacific time. Um, so if that’s not too onerous for someone living life, for instance in Toronto, that’s not too hard. Um, you can tune in distance learning to the live class and you can get more instruction and guidance on posing questions and interpreting answers. And also I’ll be teaching a class on dreams coming up very shortly, um, online and in that class I spend a lot of time helping people understand how to interpret their dreams, which is a very similar process to interpreting the experience in the shamanic journey. So that would be a place where people could also get some insight on interpretation. So, um, you know, I think that the other thing that I think is really important, um, is to really like as you’re falling asleep at night or waking up in the morning to just connect with this part of yourself just as a, as a way of deepening the bond with it and becoming aware of it in your daily life. Um, a lot of times what I like to do after doing a power retrieval for someone is to give them a little present, like a stone or you know, um, you know, a leaf or some other form of nature that they can kind of just keep in their pocket. Um, and then when they touch it in their pocket, they remember the connection and that helps integrate this sense of guidance and protection into your everyday life and it changes the way you are in the world, you know. Um, and one last thing that I would say not to do is I wouldn’t like when you’re working in this way, um, it’s important to know who you’re talking to before you talk about your experience. You know, in Buddhism there’s this concept, you know, having the ears to hear and eyes to see, you know, I wouldn’t like, you know, talk about this deep connection that you have with your guide, you know, to a bunch of drunk people, you know, I get why they probably wouldn’t be able to appreciate it and it might drain the power, you know? So here’s a thought.
Thal
Yeah. And along those lines too, like, um, I was thinking, um, you know, you had mentioned that sometimes these types of journeying brings up, um, uh, things that people have kept in the shadows, sort of. So maybe to have self compassion and not to have lots of expectations when doing these steps of journeying and maybe if someone needs to seek a therapist or a counsellor or even a friend to process that, that’s important too.
Isa Gucciardi
Great idea. Excellent idea. And you know, there’s a lot of depth hypnosis practitioners that work on the phone and you can find them at a DepthHypnosisPractitioners.org If you find like you want more help, you know, there’s, and there’s also applied shamonic practitioners that are available as well at AppliedShamanism.org.
Thal
Amazing. Okay. Um, there’s this question that have been sitting with really even before the interview. Um, I know you touched upon it a little bit earlier when you mentioned, um, the connection between Buddhism, Shamanism, anthropology, modernity, academia. Um, the question of what shamanism means has been coming up a lot lately, I’ve noticed. There’s a lot of discussion on the Internet, um, you know, uh, issues of cultural appropriation and what not. So, um, uh, what are your thoughts around that issue?
Isa Gucciardi
Um, well, the definition of Shamanism, the basic thing about Shamanic practice is that it is a method for understanding the wisdom of the earth and for bringing the unseen powers that are contained in the forms of nature into the affairs of humans. That is the essential definition of Shamanism. The word ‘Shaman’ is actually a Mongolian language the Tongas word, which means “he or she who knows”. And of course what the person knows is how the world of the unseen affect the world of the scene and how the world of the seen affects the world of the unseen. And so that the Shaman is always moving back and forth across what most people experience as a kind of divide. But, um, from the Shaman, those kinds of divides the, the veil between the seen and the unseen is very thin and, um, you know, the veil between life and death is very thin. You know, these. Um, so there’s this, you’re working constantly with the forces of nature to deepen your own understanding of these forces and to understand how to work with them again, to serve the community and things like divination or conflict-mediation or healing. And, um, this is what I’ve just described is true of all Shamanic practices across the world.
Thal
Yes.
Isa Gucciardi
And, um, you might find different kinds of cultural settings because of the climate. Or the nature of the land where the practice is, is done. Um, uh, or, um, you know, there may be certain types of rituals or ceremonies that are different in one place than another, but the actual underlying energetic experience is similar across the globe. And this is because the earth is the teacher and all Shamanic practitioners are learning from the earth in their own particular setting and their own particular way. But the teachings are very similar that emerge in different parts of the earth. And yet there are some areas of the earth that provide specific types of teachings. Like, you know, there may be some areas on the earth that where there’s a lot of teaching about the intelligence of plants and there may be another place on the earth where the earth is teaching about life and death. You know there’s many different courses that the earth offers in terms of..
Thal
Contextual courses.
Isa Gucciardi
Right, right, exactly. So, and you know, in terms of cultural appropriation, you know, the earth belongs to all beings and all beings have not only the right, but the responsibility to learn to listen to the earth and to bring the earth into their hearts and to allow the earth to bring her into the her heart in order to learn. And, you know, there’s different, um, again, cultural settings that you could access like a cultural ceremony, like a Sundance where you can access the teachings of the earth through that ceremony that is particular to that particular cultural setting. Um, but, you know, you would need to be invited in order to use that access point, you would need to have the permission of the peoples who have set up that access point.
Thal
An initiation of sorts?
Isa Gucciardi
Well, you know, to be brought through an initiation or just, you know, have permission to be nearby, right? And I think that if, you know, I think that, um, you know, it’s important to respect different access points that are held in different cultures. Um, and you know, certainly it’s important for a person who’s interested in Shamanic practice to develop their own relationship with the helping spirits of nature and to, and to understand why they are doing that and how they’re doing that in their own way. It doesn’t have to be through a cultural context. And certainly in applied shamanism, I’m quite specific about stripping cultural trappings from the practices. And the reason that I do that is because I’m trying to bring these practices into the modern time and make them as relevant as possible to the problems of modern people. But I’m also very careful not to try to use any kind of practice that is part of a cultural setting that I don’t have the permission to use. So I’m never worried about cultural appropriation because I’m very clean in the way that I work, um, you know, I have a respect for all Shamanic practices that are working within the light. And, um, I think that, uh, um, I certainly understand how people in certain cultural environments would be upset to have people coming in from the outside and trying to kind of consume their spiritual practices. And I do think that’s inappropriate, but I, at the same time, I think it’s important for people to understand that the earth belongs to all of us and we do have that responsibility to respect and honor her. And what better way to learn how to do that than to learn from the unseen powers that she holds within her and Shamanic practice is offers a pathway to that learning.
Adrian
Isa, it’s been such a rich conversation. I want to bring this to a close with sort of a two part question. Um, on the one hand, we’re experiencing this renaissance of the psychedelic interest in exploration and healing. I want to hear your thoughts and what you’re excited about and perhaps what you’re concerned about with this trend. And maybe just to along with that question is what is your vision of the future of consciousness exploration and healing?
Isa Gucciardi
Well I think that the, you know, in terms of the renewed interest in psychedelics, I think it’s a wonderful, um, and I also think that again, it comes with responsibilities and, um, I think that it’s important, um, to not approach a psychedelic plants or psychotropic plants with the kind of consumer attitude. Like what can you do for me kind of attitude. I think it’s important to enter into the realm of the plants from a place of respect and to remember that within Shamanic practice, the work with plants is very broad. It doesn’t only focus on psychotropic plants, the, the use of plants in all Shamanic cultures for healing is a specialized area of study for Shamanic practitioners. And understanding the broader intelligence of plants from that context is very important before you even begin to think about the realms of being that the psychotropic plants open to the practitioner or, and so I think we have to keep it, you know, the exploration of psychotropic plants well seated within traditional Shamanic practice that includes the broader intelligence of plants. So this is very, very important. Um, and I think that, uh, uh, of course the pitfalls are many because you have people who are facilitating plant circles that may not have this deeper understanding, may not have their intentionality as clear as it might be. But I think, you know, if you, if you do due diligence and you understand that the nature of the facilitator, the kind of education and intention they have, excuse me. Um, and let me just get a little drink of water. Thank you. Um, and if you are sincere in your own seeking, like I wouldn’t just drop into a plant circle off the street. I would make it part of a larger spiritual inquiry, to be very clear on what your intentionality is in engaging with the plants and to set an intention to receive teachings and to a particular area of your life that needs healing or clarity and, to set your intention in that way. I mean, the plants will do what they’re going to do, but by, by having the discipline to open yourself to places where the plant might best assist you is important. And also, I think it’s important after the experience to spend some time integrating what you have learned and to really not engage with psychotropic plants until again, until you have integrated what you have learned. And you know, in the plant medicine insight integrations program that we have as part of our Applied Shamanism program here at the sacred stream, we teach people how to facilitate, uh, you know, sessions beforehand that are Depth Hypnosis or Shamanic counselling in nature to help people focus and sessions afterwards to help people integrate. And I think this is really key and really fundamental to working with the plants to be working in this larger, larger context. Um, and you know, I think, you know, for me, I’m always concerned about the depletion of the plants and I think that we need to create farms. We need to create sustainable practices of harvesting and we need to keep front and center how incredibly lucky we are to be able to have access to this wisdom and to protect it’s access with our respect and, um, with our practice.
Thal
It’s like we need more wisdom to actually access wisdom traditions in some ways.
Isa Gucciardi
In some ways, that’s true. Yeah, and actually that’s, you just said what I do [laughing]. Here’s the tools. Like let’s try them on, let’s use them. Where did they take us? What did we learn?
Thal
Right, right, right.
Isa Gucciardi
Yes. Very important. Very, very insightful comment there.
Thal
Thank you.
Adrian
Thank you so much for today. We’re going to provide all those links for listeners to access the programs, Sacred Stream, and thanks for the guided journey. That was wonderful.
Thal
Yes. That was amazing. Thank you.
Isa Gucciardi
You’re so welcome. It’s such a pleasure. I’m so inspired by your dedication to the work. Congratulations.
Thal
Thank you so much. Thank you.