The messy aspects of our human experience, our feelings, our flesh, and our psyches can never conform to the prevalent culture of quick fixes. It seems that our technologies are speeding ahead of us. It appears as though we are trying to catch up but to no avail. Are we going to turn into automatons absorbed by our screen or can we slow down, contemplate, and cultivate an awareness of the unknown with humility and wonder?
On this episode, we speak with Kirk Schneider, Ph.D, a psychologist and leading spokesperson for contemporary existential-humanistic psychology. Kirk began exploring the fundamental questions of human existence at an early age following the death of his brother. Kirk believes that one of the keys to human flourishing is through the cultivation of awe and presence, especially as we approach the AI and robotic revolution. Kirk offers his critique of mainstream cognitive behavioural therapy as he advocates for an integrative model of psychotherapy that celebrates the messiness of life. Kirk was the former editor of the Journal of Humanistic Psychology and is an adjunct faculty at Saybrook University, Teachers College at Columbia University and the California Institute of Integral Studies. His major books include The Paradoxical Self, Existential-Integrative Psychotherapy, Awakening to Awe, The Polarized Mind, and The Spirituality of Awe. In 2004, he was presented the Rollo May Award from the American Psychological Association for his work in advancing humanistic psychology.
Enjoy!
Highlights:
- What is Existential-Integrative Psychotherapy?
- How to Live with a Sense of Awe
- Restoring Our Capacity for Presence
Resources:
- The Spirituality of Awe: Challenges to the Robotic Revolution by Kirk Schneider
- Better Angels: Depolarizing America
- Maya Angelou
- James Bugental
- Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
- Yuval Noah Harari
Listen:
An Original Poem Inspired by this Episode
Full Transcript
Thal:
We do have a starting question and we’re wondering about the spiritual orientation of your childhood. If you had a spiritual orientation.
Kirk Schneider:
I was brought up Jewish descent and I really grew up in a pretty secular household, so there wasn’t a lot of attention, there was very minimal attention to ceremony or religion even. Um, my father was pretty much what you call an atheist, I would say. And my mother had that leaning as well. And uh, they certainly appreciated the historical lineage of Judaism. But I would say especially the philosophers like Spinoza, to the degree that we all knew about these people. Miamonides, I mean Jewish philosophers who talked about life and raise questions about life. I think they appreciated the spirit of inquiry in particular.
Thal:
The mystical arm or the contemplative arms of the religion?
Kirk Schneider:
Yeah. Yeah. You could say that. I would say more the contemplative arms. They were pretty much products of the enlightenment, especially my dad who went on to become a school teacher in math and science, and then he became a principal and then he went on to get his doctorate in education. So he was a humanistic educator and very much aligned with the humanistic psychology temper of the times. I grew up with people like Abraham Maslow and Frank Barron and Rollo May, Carl Rogers, surrounding me. Even in my playroom, I would use some of their textbooks as building blocks to build cities. So, I mean, I, I remember from a very young age of being surrounded by that kind of thinking, but I had a very unique upbringing in that I grew up in an Italian Catholic, German neighborhood, working class neighborhood in the Cleveland area. And so I, I really got to know those traditions in a very earthy way as a kid. I mean I spend time for Christmas with friends across the street and um, I got to know some about the traditions, some of the prejudices too. We definitely were impacted by that. One day I woke up to find a giant Nazi sign painted on our ping pong table. It was hanging in our garage. It made a huge impression. I got caught up in some of the prejudices of the time too as a kid, kind of joining other mobs of kids. And one incident I remember in particular is my father pulling me out of that mob. It was probably the only time that I remember him hitting me. Yeah. Hit me pretty good on the butt. And then sat me down and explained the seriousness of what I was involved in and how hurtful that is could be to other kids. Just more about having sensitivity. People as human beings. It made a huge impression.
Thal:
I hear you when you talk about that. Just for me, I remember 911 was a big event, where I went into an identity crisis after as a Muslim woman in the West. And, um, and realizing that maybe the dark side of religions is the divisions that it creates. And it’s a paradox because similarly they do have, they all have the mystical arms, the Sufism, Kabbalah, they’re all connected and in many ways doorways to experience the divine. But we have to overcome the divisions to arrive there, I think. I feel.
Kirk Schneider:
Well, I’m sorry to hear about the challenges that you went through.
Thal:
I’m sorry to hear about your challenges as well. Absolutely. Yeah.
Kirk Schneider:
Well, it was some, some difficult times. I agree with what I hear you saying. I think one of the great problems of traditional religion, or actually one of the great challenges, traditional religions, is that they all point eventually to the deconstruction of religion that is religious boundaries around human beings where boundaries that make certain human beings, uh, seen in a certain way and others in other way, the whole us-them tension. When most of the great religions are about, in their essence, it seems to me, you know, embracing the stranger, right?
Thal:
Yeah, absolutely.
Kirk Schneider:
Being humane to each other. Walking humbly before the vastness of creation. They call it God. But they can do tremendous good in that way. And then we have had some interpreters of religion, I’m thinking of Gandhi and King for example, who exhibited that. Rumi comes to mind as well. My limited knowledge is poetry. She’s wonderful.
Thal:
Yeah. Yes, yes. There definitely needs to be a revival of, of the mystical.
Kirk Schneider:
I think so. Yeah. Although I think sometimes mysticism can also become dogmatic in its own right at times when it’s…
Thal:
Anything can become dogmatic. Once humans start putting their hands.. [laughing]
Kirk Schneider:
That’s right. It’s a human challenge. But, it is why I call myself an enchanted agnostic. If you want to know my religiosity, that’s it. I take mystery very seriously.
Thal:
I love that.
Kirk Schneider:
And I’m, I’m very exhilarated by the notion, the experiences mystery to me. It helps to, to lift us out of the petty and narrow identifications that we get into both towards ourselves and others. Yes. And we forget that we’re participating in something much, much greater and incredible. I mean, I call it awesome.
Adrian:
Kirk you shared with us the challenges of getting involved in the mob behaviour early on as a kid. Um, I’m trying to connect some of the dots there. How did those early experiences lead you towards a path within psychology and more specifically existentialism, you know your interest… Essentially what drew you towards that, that area of human psychology?
Kirk Schneider:
Well it was certainly partly that challenge, that struggle of growing up, feeling somewhat alienated but also crossing bridges with other kids and feeling a part of different cultures, people from different backgrounds and all that stirred in me as well as the teachings I would say that, uh, my dad communicated, my mother as well was very bright and thoughtful and so a lot revolved around discussion, but I would say maybe even more pivotal was the death of my brother when I was about three years old. He died of a convergence of illnesses and, my parents did everything they could to save him. He was only seven at the time. And that pretty much shattered our world for a period of time. And it caused a great deal of emotional turmoil among all of us. I don’t know if I would say particularly me, but I mean myself and in terms of being such a young, impressionable child, I was very lost and actually very terrified of the world and death and illness. I would have night terrors where I would see, witches and monsters at my window at night. I remember I would go through these long periods of crying, long periods of temper tantrums too. At one point I believe I kicked my mother’s tooth out in a rage and I was losing touch with reality in some ways. I know my father even kept notes on me. He was so concerned. Anyway it was by mother, however, who was most in touch with psychoanalysis interestingly. And she was going through it herself after the loss of her son, which I can’t even, it’s almost can’t begin to imagine what she was going through at that. But she referred me to a child analysts. And so I became a patient at a very young age. I was about five years old, I believe. And I saw this guy, middle aged guy for about a year, and it was probably one of the most important contacts in my life and certainly formative in my move toward not just thinking about being interested in human behavior, but you know, really living it and feeling it. I think one of the most important parts of that work is, I don’t remember a thing that we said really. What I remember is he was very calm and a powerful presence really, and the feeling that he had been through a lot himself. He didn’t reveal anything about his background as far as I know, verbally. Nonverbally he felt very seasoned to me. It felt like he could hold me and that’s what I really needed. At that time it was very difficult for my parents to do because of their own turmoil. And, uh, anyway, that started me on a path toward, um, being able to in a sense gradually move from a place of kind of abject terror and paralysis to gradual risk taking with him and expressing my feelings and verbalize what I was going through as well as I could at that age. Uh, and uh, and even intrigue about life and these questions that terrified me before. These were huge questions. I was opened up to at a very young age. What the hell is the meaning of all this? What’s going to happen to me? What’s going to happen to my parents? What is death? What is life, you know, how do we live it? These started becoming more and more intriguing questions to me as I was able to kind of work with such scary places in myself. And I think that was really the beginning. That was my introduction to existentialism. In a lot of ways, my world being ripped open.
Thal:
As you’re describing your experience, I’m just thinking about a lot of adults really out there that are in fear and are paralyzed by fear and are unable to experience awe in their life. I don’t even know how to like if I’m going to frame a question, but maybe just to hear your thoughts around that.
Kirk Schneider:
My thoughts are that in some ways there are two ways to look at that space that gets ripped open. You know, the, the uh, the safe and the familiar, getting ripped open, to the radically unknown, uh, the boundaryless because you don’t have any guideposts at that point. You’re in free fall. That can be seen as totally horrifying and floundering. But I think through good psychotherapy, especially depth psychotherapy which is not just talking about, but meeting the person with their whole body experience, can begin to allow more of a sense of awe, more of a sense of wonder about that space because remembered that the very space that feels terrifying and overwhelming and boundaryless is also a space that’s potentially very freeing, you know, and can enable your imagination, your creativity, more of a self creation in a sense or a communal creation. It allows freedom that the safe and familiar, the narrow path, often does not permit. Now which one is better quote unquote? You know, this is a struggle for everyone. Or a question for everyone. But for me that was very important in a sense. I guess my post-modern awakening that you know, or philosophical awakening that so much of our world is constructed by people. If you can hold that tentativeness about how we’re programmed and how we’re conditioned, you can begin to expand and deepen if you have help. But help is huge. So I don’t want to discount that. And I think that’s to speak to your question there is in terms of how does one move in this direction, we need “helpful witnesses” as Alice Miller put it. Whether they’re therapists, neighbours, you know, clergy, parents, friends, or I’m thinking of Maya Angelou, the great poet found it in books. She went to her local library following horribly traumatic sexual abuse that she went through. But she found heroes and people who related to her through literature. Some can happen in different ways, but it’s so crucial that we have that help along the way.
Adrian:
Yeah. This is so interesting because we’re not just talking about these concepts like philosophical concepts, you know? There’s a practice of this and that to me with the existential therapy is the bridging of that into a real practical level. Um, but for a lot of people, I, I have the sense that they might not know what that, what that looks like. Um, would you be able to describe what that might actually look like in terms of working with somebody in a depth oriented manner and connecting with their existential aspects of being?
Kirk Schneider:
Sure. I just want to add, did I feel extremely blessed to have had this kind of help along the way. Again, something not to be skipped over. And I had a similar pivotal experience or time around graduate school around when I was 21 or so, very far from home and had a kind of anxiety, panic attack, breakdown that I received pivotal help for by a local existential depth therapist at the time. So these, these really were my formative, probably most core bases for my direction and informing my direction. And that I had some great mentors too which we can get into later. Want to, uh, I guess we’re talking about, again, being able to have that kind of support. So…
Thal:
Thanks for going and mentioning it because it is, it is important. I mean, I even, I’m even grateful that I’m able to get the depth psychotherapy that I’m going through. I’ve been going through Jungian Analysis now for two years and I already see the benefits of that. So yes, it is important to mention that maybe not everyone, you know, has that opportunity.
Kirk Schneider:
That’s right. But everyone who goes into this field should, in my view. If you’re not taking that trip yourself, I think it’s very hard to be there in an optimal way for the other person.
Thal:
Very true.
Kirk Schneider:
Or at least in some way that you haven’t done that kind of down and dirty, you know, encounter with your own blocked off places. It’s hard to support, you know actually doing the work. But in terms of your other question about the approach, I guess we’re getting more into the theory at this point. I really see, what I call existential-integrative therapy as formed around two basic questions. Now these are mainly implicit questions in the encounter, but sometimes they’re explicit. Those questions are: how is one presently living? So it’s like holding the mirror to that partner or client to help them to see as close up as possible for them. How are they living right now? What is the state of their union in a sense or disunion. And not just intellectually or not just behaviorally on the outside, but with their whole body experience to the degree possible. And this is the integrative part, the degree possible. The client’s desire and capacity for deeper changes is a very important piece of this. And not everybody has the desire or the capacity to look, let’s say beyond symptoms or symptom change. We’re just getting back to work or whatever, or they’re so fragile that they maybe just need something physiological to help them through whether that’s medication, which I have a whole lot of skepticism around. But I also am open to as a possibility for many people just to get through the night. So how are they presently living? The second question is then how are you willing to live? After you’ve looked inside, you know, with as few sort of consolations as possible, really attempting to see the starkness of where you’re at. Now what does that imply for how you’re willing to live your life? So those really address the kind of a basic philosophical questions of freedom and responsibility, existential questions. You have the freedom to explore and to look at what’s going on. But we also have the freedom and responsibility ability to respond to what we have discovered. I actually call it freedom, experiential reflection and responsibility because it’s not just questions about just simply moving from, uh, recognizing what’s going on to just kind of instantly changing. It often takes kind of a whole body awareness of what’s going on before one has a deep sense of how one wants to change as opposed to just a cognitive conditioning for many people, not for everyone.
Adrian:
Yeah. I wanted to ask you, how does one overcome the inertia or the stuckness that one might experience in terms of, you mentioned freedom, but sometimes freedom is paralyzing because there’s so many choices, you know, which job do I take? You know, do I want to continue this relationship or end it? Um, and so how does one work to the point where they actually activate themselves to, to begin the steps of change?
Kirk Schneider:
Well, I see the therapy as helping the person again, seeing closer and closer into the mirror of themselves as to how they’re living and how they’re willing to live. And for those who are willing to take the deeper journey with this therapy, that mirror and that an intensifying of seeing where they are and where they want to be and not only want to be, but you’re mergingly are willing to be is the impetus for many people. So it builds a kind of counter-will as Otto Rank put it, or a frustration. Some of the Gestaltist put it. As as you, you, you’re very rarely exposed to that kind of that intensity of frustration about the state of your life. And this is a very exceptional space for wanting to keep coming back to, again a very focused and present way and revisiting where it is you are, which is usually blocked. That’s a part of your battle and you’re blocked in some way and where it is you want to be, not only want to be, but are willing to commit to be and to keep going over that terrain. I find that that builds that counter-will for many people to the point where they’re not going to take it anymore. You’re not going to keep living in that prison. You know, whether it’s drugs and alcohol or how they hold themselves back from pursuing something that they deeply desire or are passionate about, a love relationship or maybe a project art work of some kind. It’s a very organic process in that way. And so once they can throw those blockades off they can come into their fuller being, again more of their whole bodily experience, the fuller ranges of thoughts, feelings, sensations, imaginings, intuitions and discover or connect with meanings that were latent before or dormant. But now the person’s will has been strengthened to the point where they can be pursued.
Thal:
I think it was very important what you mentioned earlier too, that the therapeutic alliance is not about the therapist only. It’s also about what the person is coming with. Are they willing to live a full life? Do they really want to go into the depths? It’s not just about what the therapist does. In that relationship. And it’s also important when you said that, um, overcoming those things, then will, you know, take us to a place where there is meaning and which takes us back to that question, the meaning crisis and um, you know, nowadays, you know, in general how we live our life is very mechanistic, very rigid, very in our head. And really this is about coming to life. And what I want to say is there is no fear, this work. I think once we overcome and then then awe comes in. Raw
Kirk Schneider:
Well hopefully.
Thal:
Everybody should do this.
Kirk Schneider:
I agree with that a lot. A lot more people would benefit from this journey. I mean, I feel there’s always a level of some anxiety, at least for me. Um, but I don’t see that as bad. I just see them as human.
Thal:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kirk Schneider:
Flesh and blood and a certain vulnerability, which is part of what intensifies and vivifies life. But the point being, yes, if you can come into that you can feel a lot more vital about living about possibilities, and maybe even adopt a sense of awe towards living as a whole. So it’s not just about necessarily pursuing certain goals or meanings, but a whole attitude towards living that is freer. That whole attitude of being able to open to the amazement of that freedom as you were saying before. It can be dizzying. It can be overwhelming. But the more you can be present to you know, the good, the bad and the ugly within yourself and coexist with that and come into the more of who you are, the more that you can, open to the amazement and really the miracle of this opportunity that we have of being a part of something that’s so far beyond us and that is very elevating. I’m not saying one can stay on that plane all the time or even that’s necessarily desirable, but it certainly can be very powerful and a very important antidote to depression. If we think about people like Viktor Frankl for example, in the death camps, some people in the most dehumanizing conditions are able to connect with something much greater than themselves and their situations and through that find an impetus to go on. Stephen Hawking, another example, with his ALS, attuned into the cosmos, you know. Yeah. Or Maya Angelou.
Thal:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the work is not about getting rid of our anxieties and fears because those will never go away. It’s about holding them with depth and um, more spiritual maturity. I don’t know. I’m limited by language. Um, but yeah. But um, on a practical level, what’s the difference between depth, psychotherapy depths, existential psychotherapy, and say the more mainstream cognitive behavioural therapy?
Kirk Schneider:
Well, the main difference is that we’re more concerned with what you might call process as opposed to content. So it’s not that the verbal isn’t important. That’s of course very important to helping someone to become more aware of their concerns and how they want to live in their lives. But probably even more important is how they say what they say, what they bring to their words. In other words, how they hold themselves, their facial expressions. What the energy is like in the room between you. It’s that cultivation of a fuller presence to what’s really going on here as distinct from just helping somebody to move from one way of thinking to another way of thinking. Helping somebody change thoughts, make thoughts more rational if you will, which has all kinds of questions around it itself. Rational for whom? Yes might help them function better in the world in certain ways. But is that really to their benefit in a deeper and fuller way. Like going back to the old job or the old relationship might be, you know, adaptive in some ways, but maybe those are oppressive in a lot of ways and not really helping them or the culture in the longer run. So this notion of, uh, helping somebody to decide the direction of their lives in their deepest core rather than with some overlay of this is how you do it and this is what has been shown through aggregate data that helps people. Yes, through one lens and I’d say it’s a narrow lens and narrow methodology. Often that can be helpful, but there can be so much more. And I think so many people are, are short changed from having that chance to stay more fully present with what is important to them through, you know, some of the more programmatic therapies. There’s a lot around this. I mean, another analogy here, and this is a little bit crude, but I think it makes the point is that sometimes what we’re doing with cognitive and behavioral therapy is we’re changing the window dressing on the titanic, right? Okay. So you can make things prettier on the outside in a way but are you really getting to what that person is struggling with at their core? And we’ve seen so many times where people’s presenting problems, maybe something that seems more on the surface, they’re not sleeping well, they’re not eating well. Uh, the one client who had assertiveness issues with their boss, okay, so you help with that. But if those people stay with you for the longer journey or the deeper journey and are willing to pay attention to what’s going on in their bodies and what that brings up and what that associates with their deeper being, their presenting problems often shift to quite profound existential issues. Like, I don’t want to just be assertive, more assertive at work. I want to live more free in my life. I want to feel more free as a person, want to be able to express myself and access myself. I’ve seen this happen a number of times with clients. You know, I realize, I mean, I’m not eating well or sleeping well. I’m in like a black hole in my life. A bottomless pit. I’ve lost. Okay. So now we’re getting to the deeper questions. Not just to think about them, but to try to be present to those places. As I say to reoccupied parts of oneself, that one has blocked off and that’s often nonverbal. You can’t put that in words as we were intimating there before. You need to experience it.
Adrian:
I wanted to ask you, how do you personally maintain contact with that level of presence to allow for awe to even sort of be part of your experience? How do you, how do you approach that?
Kirk Schneider:
Well, again, my therapies have been very important for me to feel less scared about a lot. And to be able to stay much more with myself even when I’m feeling really down or pained or what have you. That is such a gift. I can’t overemphasize that. To be able to be presented that opportunity to realign with your fuller being. Maybe the greatest gift that one can be given. Because that means you can go into almost any circumstance and be okay, relatively okay with yourself, relative friends with yourself. You’ve gotten to know yourself in many more ways than just intellectual or what have you. So that has helped me tremendously. I really try to practice being connected with something larger. In my day to day life. I’ve had some recent struggles that have made that difficult but also have made it more acute. I’ve recently developed a cervical dystonia, which is a neurological condition, which involves a twisting of the neck. It was extremely tormenting at the beginning. It started with me just laying back in the bed and realizing my head is slowly turning and there’s nothing I can do. And so I’ve grappled with this for the last five years or so, and I have a neurologist and I’ve managed to recruit a number of holistic people. I’ve been working a lot on trying to address the physiology of it. But I think one of the most important things that has helped me and I have improved, notably, has been a determination to fully live my life in spite of, or maybe even in light of it. And, I don’t know, I guess I’ve been blessed or cursed with sometimes anger and frustration helping to drive me on and, and help me feel more free because I get resentful of, I guess when I see as unnecessary tracks that one can fall in.
Kirk Schneider:
But that’s where that paradox comes in again, because often these wounds that we’re experiencing are actually the windows, right? These are the gifts that take us to that next layer of growth.
Adrian:
Exactly. And, and that’s, that’s a real tough one for psychology to resolve. You know, I don’t know if we’ll ever resolve it. But that question of do we need actually need to be shocked or jarred in some way in order to go to the next level of consciousness? You know, a deepening or broadening of consciousness is some kind of shaking the foundations necessary? I don’t think there’s a dogmatic answer to that, but certainly we’ve seen that that has been an impetus for many people who feel vital about their lives because it’s taken them out of the box and, and it’s, it’s, uh, in some ways mobilized to live differently, to find a different way. So anyway, going back to that, attempting to tune in to the awesomeness of life, being aware of passing nature of time. Even right now, if I tune into that. It makes even our connection right now that much more precious realizing that it’s all passing. It’s all fleeting. And yet it’s here right now we’re here. That is awe inspiring, really.
Thal:
Absolutely. I feel like when we’re talking about depth existential psychotherapy, I mean the word seems very… it’s a mouthful, but really it’s also about, um, bringing that depth oriented perspective into our, into our everyday that this is something that we can actually live every day and every, um, so maybe we can talk about how, like how can our listeners orient their lives to become, much more depths oriented.
Kirk Schneider:
Yeah. Many possible routes. I was also realizing that, another way that I found this cultivation of depth as very valuable and very much part of my every day life is cross cultural contact too. And I think this kind of awe-based attitude can be very important to bridge-building among people of different backgrounds because so much of it is about coming to terms with “the other” in oneself, right?As well as the other-other. The other-other brings us in touch with the “other” in ourselves as well. And so to go to your question, I think practicing visualizations and I sometimes work with students around this, of sitting with someone of a different culture or background or mindset than you. Maybe your most challenging client or someone you know, that makes your blood curdle even. I mean, to take this to the extreme, one of my mentors, Jim Bugental used to talk about how appalled he was by Hitler in Nazi Germany. But he often wondered if he could sit with Hitler as a psychotherapist and what that would bring up in him. And that can be an extremely powerful exercise. You know, can you sit with political leaders, religious leaders who totally, repel you. What are the thoughts, especially feelings, body sensations that come up, the associations to those images, maybe memories, what happens when you sit with those and stay as present as you can to them? And then maybe imagine that person talking to you, telling you about their lives and their story. I think one often finds that as difficult as it is to do that or even to think about, that there’s a kind of humanizing that can take place whereby, it’s not not about agreeing with or even necessarily supporting the other as much as attempting to understand, being in a mode of discovery. And I would say that when that happens in actuality, person to person beyond the practicing of the visualization, uh, many more times than not, people find a different relation to the other, both in themselves and the other person. And they’re actually sitting with them. And so we’ve been promoting and cultivating some of these living room dialogues. Actually. I joined a group called Better Angels named after Lincoln’s famous speech of the better angels of our nature, you know, to bring the union back. Where it’s a grassroots movement that is now in 31 states. And they’ve done over a thousand workshops where you have a group of liberals and conservatives, usually Republicans and Democrats come together or are willing to come together in a very structured way talk about their experiences. But a lot of it is really all geared toward attempting to understand and learn about the other, not to change the other. And the Credo is “respect, curiosity and openness”. Those are the pivot points. So the facilitators really try to keep people in that mode and avoiding, you know the “I gotcha” questions or accusations or knee-jerk stereotypes. All of that is bracketed back as much as it can. And it’s people honestly attempting to learn about each other just as a basis. And then from there, it’s interesting what people find. They usually discover something new that tempers their sense of one another somewhat. Will that, you know, revolutionize America or the world? I don’t know. But it seems to me that it’s one of the best, most powerful ways of creating at least the conditions for substantive change and more communalism.
Thal:
Yeah. At the heart of what you’re saying is really, um, conversations without the ego, which is not a very easy thing to do, but is really truly transformative, which again, takes us back to the therapy room. And when you were talking about the cross cultural aspect of things, I mean, I’m thinking about, psychotherapy as a practice that has been dumped, like mostly a white practice and, now we’re moving into a world, we’re all, we’re all suffering from the same thing. It doesn’t matter where we come from. And so I see therapy as a tool that’s going to be much more important in the coming years and, and that it needs, it’s, it’s not a, I don’t think it’s just a white practice. I think it’s a human…
Kirk Schneider:
Oh, a number of us old white guys are trying to change that.
Thal:
Because the thing is cause like even from my own immediate circle, a lot of people were resisting like, are you really getting help with psychotherapy? Is it really helping you? Actually yes. If, if we’re open to it. Yeah.
Kirk Schneider:
Well we really need the infusion of multiculturalism to inform our existential therapy. Yes. Because after all, what is existentialism or humanism all about? It’s about human lives, human existence. It’s not about white man’s existence or this class’ existence. I felt for such a long time that the riches of this approach need to be opened up. The box needs to be opened up for, for everyone because this is a human project. The human project. How do we relate, what is our relationship to life as a whole to existence as a whole? We’re all in that as you could say, you know, we’re all vulnerable, fragile, small beings before this vastness and at the same time have this tremendous capacity to take risks, to venture out, to learn, to discover, create. How do we all work with that? And create conditions where that becomes a more appealing road for every one. You know, so I see a lot of these modes, including the existential therapy modes as experiments in many ways. They’re experiments in living and they’re, they’re very, very precious because they’re just not encouraged in most mainstream cultures as far as I know. Um, and especially with technology now, it’s a whole other overlay that I think is making it even more challenging. And that’s why I’ve been thinking and writing a lot about the challenges of the robotic revolution, which seems to be more and more about the quick-fix, the machine model for living. Speed, instant results, appearance and packaging. The interior life could easily get lost and the capacity to pause. That’s where I think it’s so wonderful you’re in that Jungian depth therapy, you’re cultivating that capacity to be more fully present with yourself.
Thal:
I hope so.
Adrian:
Yeah in terms of, like you just mentioned the AI Revolution, you know, with technology, we’re all vulnerable to massive disruption and it seems like we’re inching closer and closer as you know, these technologies are becoming ubiquitous. I’m reminded of the author, Yuval Harari, you know, he talks about the struggle against irrelevance. You know, what will happen the day when most human jobs are easily replaced by artificial general intelligence. And so these existential questions aren’t just for the privileged who have lots of time to ponder, you know, the big questions, they will become at the forefront I think of of every human being.
Kirk Schneider:
Yeah. They’re coming very quickly and actually there are people who call themselves trans-humanists who actually desire to see the human being as we know it irrelevant because they think that life will be so much more efficient once it’s mechanized. And once, you know, we’re able to download data, through, I guess neural chips and um, we’ll be virtually impervious to disease because we will become cyborgs basically. And this is seen as desirable post humanism trans-humanism it’s called. I think there’s no question that there is a thrust in that direction and we, especially in our depth existential communities need to be very tuned in to this problem because the whole definition of what it means to be a human being is changing rapidly. And so it raises questions about what parts do we want to preserve of this old humanity? What parts are we willing, again, are we willing to shape differently? And I think we have to be careful on both ends. Not to be dogmatic on, on either end because I try not to be a luddite either. I mean, I do believe technology has done some amazing things. It’s, it’s done some great things for many of us. Think about medicine and science in particular improved our lives, but we need to be circumspect about it. And at all costs I believe we need to preserve the capacity for presence. Because that will be our guidance system to be able to pause and to discern, okay, is this really the direction we want to go? And again, not just because my cognition tells me or some abstract, you know, book told me or philosophy, but because, my whole bodily being is questioning this particular direction or replacement of a, let’s say, a physical part of ourselves where my whole bodily being can go on board with it. Willing to take the leap. Boy, I mean, these are going to be really knotty questions when we’re on the cusp of facing that now.
Thal:
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why we’re seeing there’s a sort of, meditation has become this buzzword now for a while. It’s for a reason.
Kirk Schneider:
Yes, that’s true. That’s true. Yeah. I, I think, uh, there, there’s, there’s a great value to this mindfulness revolution that we’re seeing. I also think that it, it can be, can become in some sense a technology in itself, if it’s not about life, you know, if it’s not a, where the rubber hits the road about your everyday living and everyday consciousness, if it’s just, let’s say in a cubicle like a yoga studio or one retreat or, you know, kind of compartmentalized. And it’s not a lifetime cultivation. And if it doesn’t allow one to engage, you know, the anxious and the tragic dimensions of living too, as well as that which connects us to something higher or larger. It could end up bypassing important areas of life that I think existential folks have kept us kind of on path and keep reminding us, grounding us, the messiness of life too. And that’s a part of it. Yeah. I would say put it as helping us to find ground within groundlessness and to be aware that we are in suspense both literally and figuratively. And yet there’s so much of that suspense that we can be conscious to, you know. Conscious about and it can be freeing.
Thal:
Yeah. I’m just thinking about it just in closing. I’m just thinking about, um, uh, something that Adrian had mentioned to me just before talking to you. Maybe want to talk about it, about Maslow and, and peak experiences.
Adrian:
Yeah. I, I was reminded by, I think it was an article I read a few years ago about how actually towards the end of his life, you know, some of this never got published, but how Maslow actually he’s, and he’s quite well known for his work on peak experience and he started referring to experiencing those qualities of the peak, the peak quality in the ordinary. So it’s finding it in the mundane and the ordinary. And this was after, I think he had a near death experience that might have actually created some of that perceptual change. Um, is there anything that you could maybe add to that, because you mentioned he was a big influence in your life and here you are actually in the depths of that same lineage of, of work. How can we integrate the peak within the ordinary, mundane world?
Thal:
Especially since he’s just known for the, you know, for that trying, but there’s much more to his work.
Kirk Schneider:
Right the satisfaction of needs and yeah. Self-actualization triangle.
Thal:
Right that one.
Kirk Schneider:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’ve always appreciated his notion of peak experience and, uh, I like his direction of seeing the extraordinary in the ordinary. And of course he’s not the only one who’s, who’s looked in that way. Uh, we’ve had many poets and humanists through history who’ve opened to that, seeing the power in that, uh, I guess one of my concerns with peak experiences that it could be seen as a kind of fleeting high sort of the quick high. I distinguished between what I call the quick-boil version of awe and the slow simmer by awe, by the way, I mean the humility and wonder or sense of adventure toward living. So I think we’ve got a fair amount of the quick-boil, um, but we really need to work on more than lifetime cultivation and the more complex sense of the awesome that includes you know, sorrow and anxiety, some of the real difficult parts of life as well. It’s, that’s a part of what intensifies real living in my view. But how do cultivate extraordinary in the ordinary? Again, I believe it’s to practice and it’s a lot about what you notice. Taking time to notice the details let’s say of another person. The subtleties of your interaction was with someone else, maybe their story and noticing and discovering the details of their story, the many layers, all the different influences that go into them becoming them. Um, from a macro perspective, it’s being able to see how we’re all connected to something larger than ourselves. Participating in this great journey of, you know, the earth whirling around the sun 67,000 miles per hour, and the solar system or the galaxy apparently moving through the universe at 1.2 million miles per hour, we’re all part of this, this spaceship. And if we can kind of get that attunement at points, we’re in touch with that bigger picture, it can be so gratifying. I call a number of, of these ways of cultivating awe, “lenses of awe”, I don’t know if you’ve seen descriptions of that, but, if one could attempt to engage or sharpen one’s awareness, like almost like picking up lenses and seeing through the lens of the passing nature of time in life. For example, we’re seeing through the lens of wonder and surprise, can you be open at this very moment for something different to happen? Something that you discover. Can you allow yourself to be surprised, even though you’re going to that same old class or you’re reading that same old book, or you seeing that same old person so easy for us to get into these slots? Right? Well, it doesn’t have to be the same old, same old depending on our attitude or approach something fresh can happen and you can bring that something for you can help to bring something fresh to the moment too. Can you see through the lens of again, how we’re connected to something so much more in the moment? Just think about the histories and mysteries that we all bring right now. It’s so much we could explore about each other. Also the amazement of what brings us here, how we’re all children of the cosmos just dropped in. Does that shift our view of ourselves? I think it sheds a lot of the usual categories. Just seeing clothing or you know, a certain look or what have you. Being able to pick up the lens of what I call sentiment. Can you tune into your emotionality when you’re seeing someone else or connecting with something or someone or a place. Travel can be great part of this too, but can you engage that something with more of your whole bodily being especially how you’re feeling. Can you open to your feeling when you’re with that person or thing. The capacity to be alone, the Lens of Solitude. I think that’s really big. It’s bigger than we have granted in our culture because so much is cut against being alone, we’re so tethered, you know, often to our iPads or iPhones, we always have to have stimulation. How do you help to create or co-create a sense of awe, unless there’s some capacity to bear feelings to bear parts of ourselves that are unsettling.
Adrian:
Yeah. I just feel they need to also mention here we are talking and technology is actually mediating our encounter with you. And so again, without being dogmatic, I think it’s, it’s beautiful that we can see how these things can actually live together. You know, we’re both sitting here, you’re, you’re in California and we’re in Canada and yet there’s a transmission here, right. Our bodies experience things in this conversation that…
Thal:
Even energetically I can feel it.
Kirk Schneider:
Yeah, sure, sure. You just proved my whole thesis. Yeah. I mean it’s just, it’s a great irony in it. It’s why we need to be careful about being dogmatic. I think, uh, a lot of questions can be raised about whether there are significant differences between coming across on the screen and actually living and breathing with each other in person. I would advocate that there are, but, uh, I think all these things need to be explored much more. Yeah. I mean, it’s amazing. I recently done a series of lectures to China, to Chinese students too. It’s mind blowing, you know, these thousands of miles and thousands of miles of cultural difference too. There’s some bridges being created and actual, as you say, energy exchanges that I felt. I couldn’t see all of the students. I saw some of them on the screen. And what do we do with that? So you’re right, that is part of the awesome too. Or can be, I think the problem is, comes in, uh, when things are overly programmed, when they’re preset. when, uh, you know, they’ve got an algorithm or when it’s a calculative mode, let’s as Heidegger put it: calculated versus meditative. It closes off and when you close off, what can be discovered and what can happen also. You’re sanitizing to some degree and you’re dulling the potential for radical awe, you know, for our fuller relationship to the mystery of being. And I think that’s the danger. So how do we be careful about closing off our ways of interacting and communicating in laboratory-like settings. That don’t permit greater possibility. Yeah.
Adrian:
Kirk, that’s wonderful. Yeah let’s bring this to an end here. I’m just mindful of your time. Um, but I do want..
Kirk Schneider:
It was wonderful.
Thal:
Thank you so much. That was amazing. Thank you.