“The real problem of humanity is the following: we have paleolithic emotions; medieval institutions; and god-like technology. And it is terrifically dangerous, and it is now approaching a point of crisis overall.”
E.O. Wilson
The notion of digital wellness might sound like a contradiction to some people. However, many tech activists are consciously working on redefining our relationship with technology. We have all figured out by now that we cannot do away with our digital life, but we may be able to revivify the use of technology as a tool to serve humanity rather than the other way around.
On this episode, we explore the intersection of technology and wellness with tech entrepreneur Andrew Dunn (@aandrewdunn). Andrew is part of a growing community of tech leaders who are on a mission to reverse human downgrading by redesigning technology to support our wellbeing. Andrew is the CEO of Siempo, the first healthy smartphone interface. In 2018, he accidentally started three conscious communities: Digital Wellness Warriors for professionals in the burgeoning industry, Conscious Angels to connect visionary investors with transformative people and projects, and Wharton Wisdom to bring together alumni interested in personal growth and integrating that with their work in the world.
Highlights:
- Technology and Mental Health
- Metamodernism
- Plugging In to Team Humanity
Resources:
- Siempo
- Center for Humane Technology
- Neurohacker Collective
- Daniel Schmachtenberger
- One Nation USA Party
- The Listening Society by Hanzi Freinacht
- Komuso Wearable Necklace
Listen:
Poem Inspired by This Episode
Full Transcript
Adrian
Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew Dunn
Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here.
Thal
Nice. Thank you for agreeing to come on. I think a place to start from is, um, we’d actually like to hear about your own personal spiritual journey.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah, absolutely. What’s great is that it’s only 11:00 AM and this is not the first time I’ve shared that this morning.
Thal
Wow.
Andrew Dunn
Um, I like to start just locating myself. Growing up in affluent suburban New York in the 90s. A lot of pressure of expectation, lot of abundance and opportunities and also scarcity and molding towards a certain definition of success. So studied business in Undergrad was kind of in the fast life. Having some existential questions like what’s this all about? Gravitate towards a little bit towards stuff about like UFOs and aliens and philosophy, but never, never diving into seriously. And then when I was 23, kind of burnt out working at a startup in New York, a friend invited me to work with him on a business in India and I had no spiritual motivations. I just kind of needed to get out of New York City. And so I moved to India and a few weeks in I took some time to travel by myself and that was my first solo travel experience and I’ll never forget the Friday night I was by myself in a hostel room with nothing but a notebook and this book I bought at the airport and no Wifi maybe for the first time in a decade. And it was just this cosmic pause where everything stopped and I looked at my hands and I’m just like, who am I? Like what have I been doing? All that go, go, go, jumping through hoops, trying to be someone else. It just came to a stop and I finally had space and time to really reflect and think about how I was showing up and open to new ideas and experiences and I was high on life like that for a few days. It was, it was really magical. And the main thing that coming back to was this relationship with technology, with my phone, with social media. I, I guess I got my first phone in middle school, Facebook in high school dating apps in late college. And I was really hooked on smart phones and social media in a way that was getting in the way of all aspects of my life. And like watering down my potential and no one was really talking about it at the time. I would get made fun of by people in my fraternity. Cause you know, that’s what you do when you’re in a fraternity and people aren’t really nice. But um, yeah, I just didn’t really know like how I would improve my habits around tech. There weren’t many tools, if any. And so after that experience in India, I really started thinking critically and from an entrepreneurship lens, like how can I help other people with this massive problem that I’m seeing all over the developing world in addition to the developed world seems like one of the things that is causing a lot of societal level challenges in addition to individual challenges. And that is really dovetailed nicely with my personal journey because being in this wellness, wisdom, transformative tech consciousness tech space, has given me permission to really focus on inner work and on improving how I show up in the world. And so I’ve just gravitated towards the bay area towards mindfulness and body work and energy healing and festivals and you know, all those different consciousness expanding communities and technologies that we’re so lucky to have access to. And that really feeds my professional work, which feeds my personal work and this beautiful way. So I’m really grateful to live in a time and a place where, where I can be exposed to these different ways of knowing and I can integrate them into the thing I’m working on, which is trying to help people really with the same thing I went through and my kind of my grand hope is that digital wellness can be this incredible on ramp into that wellness wisdom world for, for billions of people in the same way that a lot of the meditation apps are trying to, you know, hook people with meditation and then help them with sleep and habits and mental health and all these other psychological support and growth activities, which really I think are like the defining challenges in industries of our century.
Adrian
That’s really cool. I, so I’m really curious like the trip in India, it sounded like there was a, um, a pretty significant awakening that was happening if, you know, if you would go as far as, you know, sort of describing it that way. Um, what were some experiences following that that helped you integrate those steps back into the bay area and getting into technology where there’s some, um, I guess some stages in between?
Thal
Encounters or stories?
Andrew Dunn
I kind of went right back into it. I joined one of these fast growing unicorn startups and I spent a lot of time in nature during my free time, a lot of time exploring. Um, I was exploring sexuality and eventually gender, um, during those years in the bay area. And so coming into a lot of interactions with people whose stories were very different from mine. And yeah, everything just kind of compounded. At some point I was like investing in myself is probably the best thing I can do. So I’m going to keep doing it. I’m going to keep opening to these new experiences and new people. I recently moved into a community living house. It’s a justice oriented Jewish, queer friendly community living house in Oakland. Like all of those things are new experiences for me and we don’t really talk about tech in the house at all. Um, so yeah, just such a diversity of experience. I think that’s, that’s a core part of what I’m trusting right now with that opening myself to diverse experiences will allow me to weave the right connections to decide what goes into this organization and product that I’m working on.
Thal
And that’s such a contrast, you know, to embrace the experiences outside of the, you know, like technologies and experience but human experiences outside of like tech world and the screen and is a whole different ballgame.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. It never ceases to amaze me that when I step away from the screens doing the work, that’s when the clarity and creativity and joy emerges every time, whether it’s five minutes or five days.
Thal
Hmm. Yeah.
Adrian
Can you, can you share with us the inspiration to start Siempo, sort of the origin story and perhaps maybe take us through the evolution to where you’re at today and what the vision that you currently have with some of these projects that you’re involved with.
Andrew Dunn
Yes. I didn’t start Siempo. It was started by some incredible folks in Chicago about four years ago now. And they had this vision of creating a mindful phone, a device, hardware and software that aligns with our humanity and helps us be more intentional and less distracted. And I left that Unicorn Tech Company about three years ago and I was kind of like, that’s it. I’m not working for another company that’s not nourishing my soul or serving the whole in some form. What matters to me? And I kept coming back to this relationship with tech thing and I’ve been kicking around this idea for a better way to get down little nuggets of wisdom that I would pick up as I was doing all the things that weren’t screens or work or doing right? Like if I was in nature or meditating or at a festival or um, you know, just like those places where the creativity and clarity comes through. I wanted an easy way to get those notes down cause I had this mental model of if by, if I take it down as a note, I’ll come back to it. I’ll organize it and eventually it’ll manifest or the dots will connect in some way. So I was trying to create a transcription ring so I could easily do that without having my phone on me, taking out my phone and unlocking it. It’s going to the notes APP, Yada Yada, getting sidetracked from the way on the way out and like completely getting out of the moments. And so I pitched that idea at the hardware meetup almost three years ago and one of the original Siempo founders was also pitching Siempo. And our stories sounded so similar and at the time there were very few people talking about this. Tristan Harris was maybe the only other person I had really seen chirping about it. And so me and Andreas kind of looked at each other and it was this love at first sight thing. So we started talking and wound up doing some contract work for them because I was still focused on, um, the ring. And then eventually I was more inspired by what they were doing. So I joined fall of 2016 and spring of 2017 we launched the Kickstarter campaign for the hardware project and we got a lot of buzz. Um, but we didn’t meet our goal and we learned a lot. Learned that the switching costs are super high for people to try the first version of something that doesn’t exist and no one’s tried. Learned that everyone’s preferences are so unique when it comes to their phone. And so we were trying to make some decisions about what would and would not be allowed on the phone. And that was, it was perfect for some, but it was too much or too little for a lot of other people. And it was overwhelming feedback that hey, I’m not gonna buy this new thing, but I will pay for a software version of this. Can I just do that? It looks like you sort of built it already. And so that was kind of a clear pivot for us. Okay. Yeah. Software we can reach a lot, a lot more people a lot faster and iterate faster. And so we pivoted to this Android launcher products. Android allows developers, so many degrees of freedom to get creative. We can mess with the notification tray, we can paint pixels over apps. We can just change the entire look and feel of the phone and it’s really bonkers that no one has done this before. Obviously the smart phone is such a problem. How has no one redesigned it for self care and mental health and wellbeing? And I think the only reason that we were the ones to be the first to do that was because we started from a, “hey, let’s let’s reimagine this whole thing, like a whole phone operating system” versus a lot of what has been out there and he’s a really good products, but many are focused on these smaller point solutions like tracking time or helping you set boundaries from apps like Facebook. So with with this software path, we were able to create a complete solution that meets people where they’re at and doesn’t require all these micro decisions throughout the day to get value out of this. It’s kind of like you download it once and it’s this like digital medicine where all of a sudden your whole digital world is reoriented towards intention and focus and connection. And then, um, I mean like some of the feedback saying like, people thank us for saving their life. You’re giving them their life back for more hours a day with their kids and the product’s got a lot. It’s got a lot of room to improve. We basically built all just new to the world step and did it on a budget and did it in a, uh, you know, it’s a very emerging market category. So it’s been challenging to find people to finance this and to um, to help us move forward. But one of the big things we did in the fall was we transitioned to an open source project because we sensed that there are so many heart-centered developers, designers, people who are just done working for some, you know, B2B 5% user experience improvement, um, that you know, raises a ton of money and burns people out in the process. Like they want to do something that’s actually helping the world. And, and also that there’s lots of people who are interested in this humane tech movement, but there aren’t really products the plugin to. So with the open source projects, we have been recruiting some volunteers from these big tech companies to help us explore what, what does a smart phone interface that supports mental health and wellbeing look like? What should the home screen of the planet say? How can we honor our Paleolithic emotions and bring out our human brilliance? And so yeah, it’s a, it’s a cool opportunity, cool time for us right now. I think the timing is better than it was a couple of years ago. Um, people are starting to wake up to this and look for solutions and I think we’re a pretty good one.
Thal
Hmm. Awesome.
Adrian
That’s amazing. Yeah. I just, uh, I just watched the presentation earlier this week, um, for today, Humane Tech Center for Technology. I forget the actual title and it was really cool to kind of see that this is happening, you know, and also a reminder that some of the toxicity from these devices were not intentional. Like I think it was a really good reminder that it wasn’t created by just bad people or bad humans. It was just a byproduct of, you know, goals that were not aligned with, with human wellness. And, and certainly we can, you know, correct course. And I think that was, that was sort of the sense I got was that very sort of optimistic. There’s, you know, solution oriented discussions happening. Um, yeah. At a personal level, I’m curious your personal thoughts on that and how, you know, what’s sort of the next big things that we can expect to see happening within the design world, the tech world. What do you think is coming in the horizon?
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. The Center for Humane Technology is really doing incredible work. And I’m reminded of this Paul Virilio quote that “when you invent the ship, you also invent the shipwreck” and another quote that there’s lots of decent people upholding indecent systems. And I think the reality is that, uh, like this is just one giant learning experience. I don’t think many people have the foresight to consider the longterm consequences to things that we’re creating and to really develop a strong sense of, of human nature and integrate that into the design process because we hadn’t had a ship wreck before, frankly, and now we have a big one. And so we’re collectively learning and it’s an opportunity for us to take one of two routes. We can unconsciously go business as usual, extractive attention economy, um, or we can bring awareness to what’s happening and adjust. And so that’s really what, what the Center of Humane Technology is doing. They’re pulling all the different levers. Whether it’s policy or galvanizing this decision makers at these companies are supporting companies like Siempo that are, um, building the future. There’s also, I was at the talk and, um, uh, Tristan came back to this E.O. Wilson quote a couple of times that the real problem of humanity is the following. The real problem of humanity is that we have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology. So Tristan says we need to embrace those Paleolithic emotions, upgrade our medieval institutions, and cultivate the wisdom to wield that God-like technology. And so it’s such a cool civilizational moment where we got to work on this too, to reverse what he calls human downgrading and, uh, design ergonomically to wrap around our human needs. And Yeah, I think I’m still still sitting with the experience from, um, from Tuesday. There were so many amazing people in that room. And we’ve always looked to Tristan and center pretty main tech for, for inspiration because frankly they, they think about this most deeply and they have been doing it for the longest and they’re really bright and they have really wonderful intentions and experts in their orbit. So when we’re creating products or making decisions, we, you know, we draw inspiration from a lot of places, but we definitely, we definitely, um, prioritize what’s coming from Tristan and now we’re exploring this relationship together because I mentioned they have a lot of interests from professionals and, um, we are a platform that people can start prototyping some of these solutions on.
Thal
Okay. So a question that comes up for me is, um, you know, someone that’s from the older generation like listening to us speak, what would like, you know, they come in, they’re like, can we really align technology with our humanity? How would you answer that question? Or like what are your thoughts around that?
Adrian
Maybe it’s like, around any sort of skepticisms. Anybody with a sort of pessimistic attitude towards technology as inherently evil or it’s like, yeah, it’s not humane. How do you normally interact with that?
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. I think the point that Tristan wanting to drive is that we need to cultivate a stronger understanding about how individuals and social groups work. And so he proposed this full stack, socio-ergonomic model of human nature. Everything from the individual level, our physiology, like are we breathing when we check our email and the emotions and attention and cognition sensemaking all the way up to the decision making, social reasoning, group dynamics, social environments. And if we have that model, then we can better diagnose problems. And if we’re cohering a lot of the experts and all these different disciplines to set standards that then a product or design team at Youtube can reference and can, um, connect with, uh, those domain experts on when deciding, hey, how should we design this new thing that 2 billion people are going to be using? And it’s going to be shaping their consciousness. Like every one of these companies for the most part, agrees that yeah, things need to improve. And it’s really cool to talk to people at companies like Facebook where Facebook had it rougher than some of the other ones last couple of years. What I’m sensing is a strong sense of camaraderie. Like it’s not, it’s not so much shame or embarrassment, it’s, it’s like, wow, like what an incredible challenge and we’re in an interesting time to be here. Like, I’m in it. I’m really excited about how we can learn from what has happened and integrate that to make something better and, and learn from the processes that we try to do that so that we can just keep getting smarter about learning and growing and learning and growing. So I have, I have reason to be hopeful. I think the money question is always the biggest question mark and would have been cool to hear a bit more about that during the presentation. Because that’s one of our questions since the dawn of time. It’s how do you shift these business models from extractive, all about optimizing for engagement and attention to what’s most life giving and like instead of a race to the bottom of the brainstem, what’s the race to the top where all these companies are starting to compete on who can add the most value to someone’s life? Who can improve someone’s mood the most? Who can be the most trusted? And I think it’s a process. It’s not going to happen overnight. It’s easier for a new entrant like us to learn from those pitfalls and draw a line in the sand and say, we’re all about this and really show it. And I think that’s something that’s going to serve us well as we go. It already has, like we’ve built a reputation as a high integrity Silicon Valley Tech Company, which is rare. Uh, but yeah, you know, things take time. I think that’s one big lesson I take away from the last few years because I have these bursts of insight and vision and I raced to make it happen in the world and time and again, I realized that these things take time and that’s okay. And I don’t have to act on every idea I have. And I mean that’s one of the things I reckon with because I feel such a call to step up as a leader in this movement and really step into the biggest expression of who I can be and what Siempo can be. And then I also, I’m trying to cultivate a self care lifestyle where I’m finding rest and joy and doing things that bring me connection and peace. And so yeah, how does one do that if they’re a silicon valley entrepreneur trying to work on a very urgent problem because we have eight to 12 years left of stable society and if only we can just shift people from, you know, games and dating towards plugging into climate activism then like everything would be perfect. [laughing]. So it’s all, it all comes back to balance for me and that’s, that’s the thing I get to wake up everyday and work on what’s what’s balance today?
Adrian
Yeah. I’m being inspired by actually one of the articles I read that you wrote on medium about humane business and there was a quote in there I think by the Dalai Lama and he says, the planet does not need any more successful people. The planet desperately needs more peacemakers, healers, restorers, storytellers and lovers of all kinds. Can you, can you share a little bit about what you mean by “humane business” and how you’re practicing it through, um, through your projects?
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. Thanks for reminding me about that piece. So much has happened since I’ve published that about a year ago, but it was an attempt to shine a light on all the things that have been inspiring to me. All the business model movements and cultural movements and people and acts that were giving me, they were helping me feel supported and creating in the ways that I want to and sustainable regenerative ways and I think a lot of my, my sense of purpose comes back to what communities and I connected with, what experiences have I had and so like where, where are the, the trim tabs, the acupuncture points that I can have the most impact with the smallest effort. So an example of that is two weeks ago I organized a alternative career panel for my alma mater because there’s all these business school kids who really struggle with the cutthroat environment and investment banks coming to recruit on campus in their sophomore year when these kids are 19 years old. And you know, that’s the, that’s the shiny candy and everyone wants it. And a lot of people’s self worth is tied to do if they got that internship. And um, I’m so inspired by that. There’s now organizations on campus wellness clubs, mental health clubs, there are fraternities at Dartmouth that have mindfulness chairs. How cool is that? It’s just like so simple and helps with so many problems, whether it’s sexual violence or, uh, stress and depression and toxic masculinity. It’s just like so simple. And, and so what does humane business mean? I think it’s something around serving the whole over just the needs of self. Something around [inaudible] because everything we create is an expression of our fears and biases. And I think it means coming back to, to human connection and building deep relationships with people that aren’t so transactional. I mean, that’s, that’s what’s so cool. Like I think one of my skills is networking or being a connector depending on how you want to call it. And it’s so cool that I love Facebook. Facebook allows me to connect with such interesting people around the world who can help me and I can help them. It’s like I think there’s a lot of people who are missing out on the amazing parts of Facebook. Like we can’t reduce anything to just good or evil. Facebook has some parts that are deleterious to the human experience and it has some parts that are completely amplifying to the human experience. And one of those is the ability to like ask a question or put your intention out there and get what you’re looking for and to connect with that person who has an identical vision with you halfway across the planet and it’s gonna make your day because they are, you know, they thought about this or they have that resource that they can share with you. So, yeah. Yeah. What’s your main business? I don’t know. I think it’s something I’m still exploring. I think it was also just an attempt like, uh, like ride the coattails of Center for Humane Technology and try to do some thought leadership.
Adrian
Yeah, no, I really appreciate that. I mean, you look at our project just even with this podcast is, um, largely is possible because of platforms like Facebook, right? That we can actually share this out there, um, at no cost and it can be, you know, duplicated and people like, you know, in some of the stats that we’re looking at, like people from like nations at can’t even imagine, never envisioned as part of the audience. Like they’re a part of it because it’s, you know, it’s hard to kind of bring that into my sort of local linear thinking brain to, to think in a global, large connected system. It’s just not intuitive. And so when we begin to start seeing the reach..
Thal
The potential.
Adrian
..and the possibility, it just, it gets really exciting.
Andrew Dunn
That’s so cool.
Thal
Speaking of which, um, are there any projects or people you’re particularly inspired by today?
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. Oh yeah. I think the biggest threat I’ve been following since I published that blog post was this, where did it start? Uh, maybe listening to this philosopher and neuroscientists, Daniel Schmachtenberger, systems thinker. Um, he’s part of this organization Neurohacker Collective, which makes this nootropic called Qualia. And there’s, there’s a great podcast attached to it and that led me to this new political party called One Nation that is grounded in this metamodernism philosophy, which I’ll talk about in a sec. And yeah, it’s all about win-win paradigm and healing and um, yeah, transcending the bipartisan gridlock that we have in this country and really creating a party that sees and hears people. And considers all perspectives and works towards planetary peace and rebirthing civilization, which sounds all really good. And I cried tears of joy watching their stuff. Um, that’s One Nation Party USA. And yeah, this meta-modernism in philosophy, ideology. There’s a great book called The Listening Society and it kind of highlights …. We have this modern world, postmodernism deconstructs everything that’s wrong with this world, but it doesn’t really offer a reconstruction. So what is that reconstruction where we get going? Like what’s the logical progression of, of this civilization that we have. And so it looks to the Nordic countries where they are doing lots of things to, um, care about the sick and children and environments. And they’re not saying screw capitalism. They’re kind of like integrating the best of postmodern and modern pre-modern, not excluding anybody and really trying to around psychological support and growth. Um, cause that’s not even being talked about in politics. And so even if like whatever side of the aisle you’re on, even if you get everything you want, we’re still gonna have millions, billions of people who are lonely, depressed without meaning. So Emma and I have been talking about that. So what is the society we really need to, um, to meet the demands of our century in this civilizational moment that we’re in. And I really appreciate there’s one little line about how the meta-modern aristocracy are hippies, hackers and hipsters, which I imagine might be a bunch of your audience or a bunch of your networks and, and how whereas financial capital has been, and the marker of success, it’s losing a lot of it’s or well, maybe other types of capital are becoming more relevant, like social capital, emotional capital, sexual capital, et cetera. And yeah, I mean that’s, that feels really confirming to me because I’ve instinctively gravitate towards some of the more, um, spiritual, esoteric, uh, subcultures. And that’s because I find a lot of meaning there, I find a lot of real connection and inspiration health and there’s like, not everyone in my world agrees with that. Uh, so, so hearing, hearing from an authority figure that that is not just some like deep trust hippie thing, but like, actually, no, this is hugely important. This is a huge industry. This is, this is critical to the surviving and thriving of our civilization. That just gives me so much meaning for what I get to wake up everyday and do. And even if it’s not Siempo, I mentioned before we recorded this that I wrote down like kind of a draft of a purpose statement because I’ve worked on a lot of different side projects over the last few years as I’ve been involved with Siempo. Not because I’m bored, but just because I’m, I don’t know, I, I can’t help it. Like these ideas come and I really like to initiate things. And so I was trying to reflect on how they all weave together. And so I attempted to do that a few months ago and it’s changed since then. But here it goes and I’ll put emphasis on some of the words that have either turned into projects or a significant explorations. So my purpose is to wake people up from the hypnosis of technology and privilege. To help them connect to their true nature and higher purpose so they can enlist in team humanity. For the benefit of all beings everywhere. So Siempo is about freeing up time and attention. Conscious Angels and waking up with family is about freeing up resources so that more people can take the leap to begin their personal journey towards their purpose. And then something about growing the world of services around human development and community that I’m tapped into such as a metamodern Grad school. Um, a couple other things that our friends projects, a Wharton Wisdom, that alumni thing I mentioned to do it anyway so that more people can plug into the team humanity so that we can create the beautiful world our hearts know as possible.
Adrian
Yeah, I love that. It’s, I just got chills because no joke this morning as I was journaling, one of the things I was kind of floating around this idea that it seems like a lot of my training currently in sort of the psychotherapeutic realms and my past, I’m thinking about my previous training in physical therapy and fitness. One thing and now starting to see a connection is it has something to do with freeing up energy so that other people can do more meaningful work. And so literally freeing up energy was like a major thing I was sort of thinking about this this morning and as you’re saying that, I just like my whole body just got a reaction there.
Andrew Dunn
Woah, let’s talk about that.
Adrian
Yeah, yeah. That’s kind of trippy. Yeah. But I mean there’s something about recognizing, yeah, that this modern meaning crisis is to a degree of privilege. There’s a degree of privilege that comes with enabling someone to actually experience the meaning crisis to be at a point in their life where they get to question oh is this occupation or career meaningful for me.
Thal
Because you’re no longer stuck at that survival level of consciousness.
Adrian
Exactly. Yeah. So I think that’s an important thing to highlight to a highlight is to remember, yeah, there’s an element of being privileged and as millennials, that’s another thing that was sort of a theme that was kind of coming up in the journaling was recognized we’re a unique generation and these are things that are, you know, sort of speeding up. But like you, like you mentioned earlier, there’s an opportunity too. This is a really cool time to be part of the change.
Thal
Post-modern thought kind of started to paved the way for us by deconstructing everything and breaking away all the hierarchies. It’s like, okay, let’s do it again. But, you know, consciousness and intentionality.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. All that. Yeah. Oh Man. So a bunch of things. Um, one of my friends, he’s a coach of mine, so something I spoke recently that like, like don’t be afraid of your privilege. Use it to help others who don’t have it or something like that. That really struck a chord with me. Unstuck energy. Yeah. I was thinking about something similar this morning too. Um, because I recently came into some abundance and I, you know, there’s the conventional wisdom to save and put that in mutual funds that invested in the whole basket of random stuff and you know, maybe you find some better socially conscious and you know, not drilling for oil but um, I also heard things over the last few years, I think I heard something and I, I forgive me if this is not so accurate but that um, in in the Islamic world and like 16th century, it was illegal to hoard money like if you had lots of resources that you had to keep moving them. And I think that might be still a component of Sharia law to some extent. I’ve also heard about communities that experiment with negative interest rates where like, you, you want to keep, like, you want to keep money moving because if you like, if you can hold that money as a form of energy, um, if it gets stuck then that’s when problems might arise. So like I came into some resources recently and I guess there’s like a whole bunch of questions on how I want to relate with that. And I haven’t really been doing anything super proactively. It’s kind of just spin as I’m moving through life if there’s an opportunity where a little bit can go a long way, uh, as, as a gift, as a donation or even like, there’s these crowd platforms where you can invest as little as a hundred dollars in the for profit companies. And it’s like, wow. Like, yeah, I want a, I want to send a vote of confidence that way. I think the resources that I have will, um, will be helpful and, and maybe I will make money in return. Maybe I’ll feel good in return. Maybe I’ll get connections in return. But it’s really not expecting anything. It’s just like the reasons why I had, you know, however many hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into me as a human being and someone else had zero or somewhere in between or more is kind of arbitrary. And we, you know, we have huge inequality problems that we need to address and I wonder if it’s going to take a critical mass of people with privilege, with, with, um, class privilege to start thinking differently about capital. And that was one of the things I mentioned in that purpose statement. I was having these hits of this Conscious Angels idea that was, I was so, I was like, maybe we can start an angel group, like a group of investors who want to fund transformative projects and people, but it was kind of more of like, Hey, I just want to, I just want to help. I guess I want to tell stories about how there’s all these different ways that we can support the people in our community and around us that are not just a donation or a for-profit investment, which is only really, um, if it’s exclusive to people with a certain income level. So yeah, I don’t know, just trying to figure out how can I serve because I have a lot to give and whether it’s time or money or skills or connections, it feels good to do that and it’s actually helping, so I want to keep doing it.
Thal
Amazing. Um, on that note, um, do you, I don’t know if you want to share with us what kind of spiritual practices that sort of sustain you on a daily basis so that you can come more and more from that abundant place.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah, I, well one spiritual practices as many days as I can. Um, during my morning routine, I’ll just take out a piece of paper and brainstorm or heart-storm on something. And so about a month ago I wrote that down…
Thal
Heart storm, I love that!
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. My friend Matthew Lazarus coined that and he’s actually visiting me right now, another conscious entrepreneur. Um, so I wrote down Spring Self Care and uh, like, I don’t know, I’m worried about it being perceived as just a whole list of things cause I don’t do all of these every day, but I usually do a handful that just intuitively feel right for me to do in that first hour of the day after waking up or throughout the day. Um, so journaling, dancing, playing music, drawing, watching the sunrise or sunset incense. There’s a garden right near my house. Gratitude, Metta, Yoga. I got these fun little things. I got the Leaf, it’s a wearable that tracks your heart rate and breathing and get us biofeedback when you’re like, when your stress levels are higher. I got this whistle, a whistle up. Okay. I should know the name of this brand, but what I’m wearing is a, it looks like a whistle and it’s a Japanese ritual around expanding your exhale to 10 seconds. So you breathe in and then you breathe out into this whistle for 10 seconds and do that a few times. And so it activates the parasympathetic nervous system.
Thal
What kind of sound does it make?
Andrew Dunn
It actually doesn’t make a sound.
Thal
Oh, okay.
Andrew Dunn
But it just looks like a whistle.
Thal
Oh, interesting.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. I got posted notes all over my room that prompts me to think about what I’m grateful for. Siempo has an intention on the home screen, so I’m reminded of that a hundred times a day. And I dunno, I just, I try not to over schedule so that I have space to do whatever feels like the most important thing to do. I try to say yes to connection to adventure. I try to educate myself. Oh, I was gonna mention this because when we’re talking about not everyone has the privilege to think about some of these things or you know, focus on inner work, there’s a, there’s a great coffee table book that’s showed up at her house a couple of weeks ago just called like Psychology. That’s, it’s a coffee table book, the hundred most important psychologists through history. And first of all, most are men. Second of all in the bio’s, it feels like 9 out of 10 that I’ve read so far were like, “so and so was the son of Duke, whoever”, or like a wealthy so and so and like had a storied career before they turned to academia. I’ve been reminded of that by, by others too. Um, so I guess there’s like two ways to look at it. Like you can, you can be shy about that or you can really embrace it and use it to share it with others.
Thal
Yeah. It also feels like technology kind of amplified the meaning crisis where even people who are, you know, whatever in survival state or, you know, worrying about just covering mortgage are also going through the big questions. It’s like there’s this, it’s just, it feels, it’s more amplified in a way. So yes, privilege, but also it’s a global phenomenon now. Um, you know, this meaning crisis or, you know, the big questions. Like it’s like a post postmodern state or whatever.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. It’s so fascinating. The track how automobiles, suburbanization social media polarization, like all these technologies and phenomenon have a further separate us from each other, from the land, from spirit, from, yeah. Just from everything and in that, in stories of assimilation and stories of, um, I guess rapid change where it’s harder for the previous generation to really communicate to the next generation these, these wisdom teachings. A lot of people have lost that the important connection. Sorry. Yeah. I don’t think it’s unique to just people with class privilege. I think it’s definitely something that a lot of people are asking.
Adrian
I want to ask you about, um, just along the lines of the spiritual journey, any recent struggles? How it might not have interfaced well with your day to day activities. Anything you can share on that front? Challenges?
Andrew Dunn
Hmm. I think there’s something around knowing my audience and meeting people where they’re at. I think I, I stumbled a little bit earlier on and still do sometimes with coming into contact with folks who don’t have the same awarenesses or who knew me as like a very different person and it’s really tempting to want to share all the exciting things that are happening in my life and some of that maybe projection, some of it maybe like my need to be seen. Um, and that can break connection with, with those folks. And so, I mean, this is something I’m learning as a person in the business world too like, you know, there’s a way to walk into an investor meeting dressed like I’m going to burning man or to trust, like, you know, I’m walking into an investor meeting and even if there’s investors go to burning man, that’s a funny thing. So yeah, it’s, and I think, so I’m, I’m reconnecting with Judaism more after about 20 years of really being disconnected from it. And this whole, uh, like struggle balancing worldliness and holiness is seemingly core to, uh, the Jewish tradition. And maybe we have different words for it, but actually I think that the meaning that is most resonant for me about the word Siempo, it was originally a Spanish play on siempre, “always” and tiempo, “time”. And always being mindful of the time we spend on things. And then last year I was just thinking about it and I was like, what does it mean today for me? And it was just like so clear that tiempo is time, technology, the mechanical, logical and masculine and siempre, always, that’s the intuitive, infinite, feminine. And where it’s about balancing those two energies, Yin and Yang, Shakti and Shiva, worldliness and holiness, heaven and heart, whatever you want to call it. And I’m embodying that and our organization and our product is all about helping people balance you know, being spiritual beings in the material world or however you want to phrase it.
Thal
Beautiful.
Adrian
Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today, Andrew.
Andrew Dunn
Oh, thank you both. It’s really fun to talk about these topics and yeah, I’d love to, um, be available to anyone who wants to learn more about any of the things I talked about. Is it okay if I share some resources?
Adrian
Yes, totally.
Andrew Dunn
Cool. Thanks. So yeah, email me at Andrew at Siempo dot CO. I’m on Twitter, Andrew Dunn, but with two A’s: @AANDREWDUNN. I hang out a lot on Facebook because it’s so good for my life. I spend a lot of time in New York and yeah, Siempo is on Android. You can search it in the play store. We’ll be on iOS at some point. And yeah, we have an open source project. So if you’re a designer, developer, data scientists, marketer, we’d love your support. We’re also hiring for a tech lead. Like, I think I’ve maxed out my requests.
Thal
We’re gonna. Yeah, we’re going to put those links too in the shownotes for sure.
Andrew Dunn
Yeah. Awesome.
Adrian
Yeah. It’s great to have you part of a team human.
Andrew Dunn
Cheers. Likewise. Thank you. We got this.
Thal
Thank you. Oh yeah, for sure.