#18: Life After Ayahuasca with Laura Lockhart

May 26, 2019 01:07:23

“Not why the addiction, but why the pain?“

-Dr. Gabor Maté

The work of healing our trauma can be daunting, non-linear and complex. It is a path that conjures in us courage and resilience. On this episode, we have the honour of sharing an inspiring story of healing, transformation and wisdom. From an early age, Laura Lockhart has been struggling with mental health problems that included trauma, depression, panic attacks and multiple suicide attempts. Laura was diagnosed with so many disorders that many psychiatrists refused to take her on as a patient. Just when she thought she had exhausted all of her options, Laura met Dr. Gabor Maté, a world renowned author and trauma specialist. Dr. Maté believes that the mind and body cannot be separated and that disease is often an expression of deeper unresolved emotional stress. In 2014, Laura attended an Ayahuasca retreat with Dr. Maté and for the first time in her life, she was able to begin working with the deeper issues beneath her suffering. We hope you enjoy her story!

Laura is currently an intern psychotherapist in Toronto. She can be contacted at lauradlockhart@gmail.com

Highlights:

Childhood Trauma and Suicidality
Ayahuasca Retreat with Dr. Gabor Maté
Working with Emotional Pain

Resources:

Beyond Addiction, The Yogic Path to Recovery
In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, by Dr. Gabor Maté
Nature of Things: The Jungle Prescription
Landmark Forum

Listen:

Poem Inspired by This Episode

Full Transcripts

Thal

Welcome Laura to the show.

Laura Lockhart

Thank you for having me.

Thal

Thank you. Um, Laura, you know, I just, I’m very interested in transformative experiences and what that means in our lives. Um, maybe we can start with that. Like what was a transformative experience in your life?

Laura Lockhart

Okay, so a transformative experience in my life. Um, that would have to be my journey with Ayahuasca. So I had been severely depressed and um, panic attacks and a whole gamut of diagnoses from different psychiatrists. Um, doctor after doctor, couldn’t get the help that I needed treatment program after treatment program and I remained this emotionally disregulated, anxious, depressed person that the medical community was telling me that there was no hope. My doctor was like, I don’t know who else to send you to anymore. Um, I’d had psychiatrists see to me that I was so multifaceted that people wouldn’t want to work with me. I’d been told that I was going to be on medication for the rest of my life. So to treat it like I would if I was diabetic and just accept that this is the way it was. Um, and then I found Dr. Gabor Maté through Beyond Addictions Kundalini Yoga program. And I attended his seminar and he spoke about Ayahusca. And though I’d heard about it before it had gone in one ear and right out the other didn’t resonate with me at all. And then when Gabor spoke about it, it really resonated with me. And there was a, uh, knowing that I had to do this and um, because there was about 300 people at the seminar, getting up to him was impossible. I would have had to stand there for well over an hour probably. So I chose to go home and I couldn’t stop thinking about it. And so I just opted to send him an email. Either he would get back to me or it would get lost in the millions of emails that he receives. And he responded to me later that night and just invited me to come back and talk to him. And so I did. And then about nine months later I was at his retreat. And, that was five years ago now. And I have not been on medication since. And although I still experience depression and anxiety, in no way, shape or form, is it anywhere near what it was.

Adrian

I’m curious what, what was in the email that you feel like really resonated with Gabor to respond to you?

Laura Lockhart

Um, it probably wasn’t the email. What had happened was during his seminar, it was his addiction seminar. So his Beyond his in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts seminar. And I wrote, I raised my hand and I told him, I said, I’m addicted to try and kill myself, which was true because that was the way that I had learned to cope with my pain started when I was about 14. Um, and there had been multiple attempts throughout my life and at the time I was meeting Gabor I was 38, so we were in my, in double digits by that point in time. Um, and he basically, he was very gentle with me and he asked if he could touch me and he’s like, what’s this feel like? And he just touched me very, very lightly. I was like, that’s hot. Like it feels, he said, yes, you’re a highly sensitive person and things impact you on a very deep level. And just that his invitation to me if I was willing to accept it, was to learn to suffer. So in other words, learn to feel my pain and learn to be with it as opposed to trying to escape it, which is what I was trying to do. Um, so I think it was that conversation that resonated with him. And then when I emailed him I said, I don’t know if you’re going to remember me, who wouldn’t remember that, but, okay. Um, and I just basically said that you had spoken about Ayahusca, but you spoke about it in regards to addiction. I didn’t consider myself somebody with a formal addiction because I don’t do drugs. Don’t do, I mean I’ll have a beer, but I’m not a drinker. Um, so I didn’t know if it was appropriate for me or if it was strictly for addiction. And, um, I just let them know that, you know, I had done so much in the medical system and I just didn’t feel I was getting anywhere. And he wrote back probably within hours and just said that he’d been thinking about me. So I think that that seed was planted in the seminar.

Adrian

Wow. Yeah. We’d love to go into the Ayahusca experience, but I think maybe if we can backtrack and hear about your life leading up to the, the invitation give you, if you can describe to us a little bit about the background perhaps growing up and, and what it was like as your pre-Ayahusca experience.

Laura Lockhart

Okay. So growing up I was the second child, um, six years apart, two very stressed out parents. My dad was a police officer, my mom was home with the children. Um, so dad’s working 12, 14, 16 hour days. Mom’s trying to raise a six year old and pregnant with me. There’s stress in the family. Um, and by the time I come around, I am what they described as an inconsolable infant. Um, what I’ve learned is, is that it was because nobody was attuned to me, so they couldn’t console me because they couldn’t attune to me because they were so stressed out. Um, it’s not about bad parenting.

Thal

They were not attuned to themselves.

Laura Lockhart

Right. Yeah. Um, so in that, I think what would also happen is because you have this screaming baby that’s heightening your stress and then you leave the baby. Like, I can’t do this anymore and you kind of leave the baby. Um, so there’s abandonment for me, lack of attunement, unintentional neglect, um, and some physical abuse. So I would get, I would, I was hit. Um, and then because my sister is six years older, she resents me. I’m causing all this problem in the family. So I’m the target of a great deal of resentment. Um, so growing up in that, I could see like the looking back, I can see the mis-attunement in my parents. By all means. I had, I had a good home. I was well clothed. I was well fed. Um, I was never left alone alone, but dad was down doing his artwork, mom was up reading the newspaper, I was alone. Um, and it, it goes throughout my whole family too. I see it in my whole family and I think it’s intergenerational. So, um, I have, I have memories of, um, parents flying into a rage and striking me. Um, and then as I get older, I’m unable, I’m less and less able to cope. Um, it’s, I see, I see relational issues starting at a very young age where probably, I can probably, the earliest I can trace it to is like six or eight where I can’t wait until it’s 10 o’clock in the morning, which is an appropriate time to make a phone call so that I can phone my friend because I’m so desperate for connection and so desperate to just be with somebody. And what does that cause on the other end? She’s needy. She’s, like clingy. Um, so people don’t like that and they disconnect from me. It’s too much for people. Um, so a lot of relational issues. Um, then get into middle school, high school and it’s just, uh, a hot house of loneliness, depression, anxiety. I wouldn’t go to school if I didn’t know.. If I didn’t have somebody to eat lunch with, um, because that loneliness was so deeply painful. Also experienced a lot of stomach upset, a lot of, um, intestinal issues. And my parents would take me to doctor after doctor after doctor. Nobody could find anything wrong. Okay. Well, finally one doctor says it’s stress. I think she’s stressed out. It’s the 70s who wants to believe that their infant is stressed out. We don’t have all this information yet. Um, so, um, by the time I get to high school, I’m so paralyzed with anxiety that the stomach upset is a daily thing. I’m missing 35 days in a semester. At one point in time they had asked me to leave school because what’s the point? Um, I didn’t end up leaving school. Fortunately for me, I became very physically ill at the school and was vomiting. So they saw that it was real. Um, like I wasn’t just some lackey, so they didn’t end up kicking me out of school. But I certainly didn’t get the education that I needed. Um, and nobody at the school was attuned to me. Like nobody stopped and said, why is this young woman who is clearly very bright and very articulate, not doing, not performing? Why is she missing so much school? Why is she isolated? Because I wasn’t a problem maker. I was that quiet child that never caused any trouble. I was very polite, very soft spoken, well spoken, so I wasn’t the “problem child”. So I get missed just okay, not performing up to her capabilities and passed onto the next one. Um, at that point in time, I didn’t know I had mental illness. I didn’t even know what mental illness was at the time. Um, there were times where my family physician had tried to put me on medication for depression, but telling me that it would help my stomach issues. Um, then at 16, so my first, my first suicide attempt was at 14, but I didn’t know how to do it. So I took like 10 Tylenol and it had no effect. Couldn’t figure out why it didn’t work, but it didn’t work. Um, and then at 16 was the, the, the Big One. And, um, my parents rushed me to the hospital, so small town, my dad drove me to the hospital. They had to call ahead to make sure the doctor was going to be there. They pumped my stomach, um, and admitted me overnight, but then released me the next day with no follow-up. Nothing.

Thal

Wow.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah.

Adrian

At this point I want to ask, because you mentioned your parents were, so dis-attuned to you. Was this the first time for them too, as a wake up call or were they sort of, you know, noticing that you weren’t well before that?

Laura Lockhart

Um, I think they were noticing I wasn’t well, but for them it was that I was just being difficult. So my not getting out of bed for them was just me being stubborn. Maybe asking for attention. Yeah, yeah. Me being a problem teenager. So the way they dealt with it was to try and force me out of bed, yell at me, get out of bed, um, force me to go to school. Yeah. It wasn’t, it wasn’t treated as maybe we should look at what this, what’s causing this.

Thal

And nothing at the school, like no counseling. No… Wow.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. None.

Adrian

And so after that, the Big One, you were sent back home after one day… What was it like, like coming back, realizing it didn’t work? Or you know, what was going on in your mind at the time?

Laura Lockhart

Um, for me that it was life. Um, what was going on for me was a lot of shame because there were friends that had been there that night, so there was a lot of shame and embarrassment and, um, my dad talked to, uh, the one friend that was there for the whole thing and just ask that it be kept confidential. Um, but other than that, nobody spoke to me about it. My friends didn’t speak to me about it. I didn’t speak to my friends about it. We just went on like nothing had happened.

Thal

Yeah. It’s like the shame was experienced on multiple levels. It’s like you’re experiencing shame. Your parents are probably experiencing it, your friends as well. And it’s like nobody’s talking about it. It’s like, as you said, it’s like misattunement on so many levels.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, life just carried on as per usual. And um, by the end of my first year of college, that’s when I started to realize, realize that there was something wrong. Um, that’s when the panic attacks started. So that hyperventilating, the shaking, the crying, the, um, the, the cold sweats of full blown panic attack to the point where it would last for hours. And I remember going to my mother’s and she, she brought me into her bad to like stay the night with her and at some point in time she realized that maybe she should take me to the hospital because that’s how bad it was. Um, so she took me to emergency, they put you in a separate room. Um, and the doctor came in and he was a very kind man. Um, but the first thing he did was prescribe, um, a bunch of medication and then sent me to a psychiatric outpatient program the next day. Um, and when I went to that, um, I went alone and I saw a social worker and she did my intake and assessment and then, um, she brought in the psychiatrist and he didn’t ask me many questions at all. Um, but together they decided that I was bipolar and put me on lithium and a bunch of other medications. And the lithium made me crazy person. Like I was a walking Zombie, but I had tremors all the time and every time I went back and I was telling them that, you know, my symptoms are getting worse, they’re not getting better or they’d would just up the medication. I’ve since had multiple doctors say, there’s, you’re not bipolar. There is like, I don’t even, I don’t have any symptoms of mania.

Thal

Yeah I was about to say like, it doesn’t sound like there was any manic episodes during your childhood or during your struggles.

Laura Lockhart

No, but I’ve since seen the report that they sent my doctor and in it she writes that, um, that my mother reports a year long manic episode when I was 11. She didn’t speak to my mother. I was there alone. And then she also reported that I reported a year long manic episode, my first year of college. That isn’t what I said. What I said was that I felt good about myself my first year of college because I was getting straight A’s and it was the first time in my life.

Thal

And so that was manic?

Laura Lockhart

That was my mania.

Adrian

You’re too happy.

Laura Lockhart

I was too happy. Yeah. I enjoyed those days a little too much.

Thal

You loved yourself a little bit too much.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. But I think she also factored in like a shopping addiction. And um, at the time I didn’t know that euphoria meant manic. I just thought it meant felt good. So when she asked me if I ever felt euphoric, I, I think that was the sticking point is that I said yes. You know, my first year of college I felt really good that I was getting straight A’s.

Thal

It’s in the wording.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. So, um, I hadn’t studied psychology yet. I didn’t know the connection. Um, so they just kept upping the medication, upping the medication. And I’m becoming more and more zombified. Um, I’m a mess at work. Work is starting to notice. Um, people are pulling me aside and saying, Laura, like something’s changed. This is not, you look at your writing, it’s like, this isn’t you. Something’s wrong. That was a catalyst to another suicide attempt. But this time I had a bunch of psychiatric medications to use. And I was rushed to emergency, um, where they didn’t, they didn’t pump my stomach. Now they just let you drink the charcoal, which is gross but better. Um, so they admitted me overnight into a psychiatric unit, um, which I fought tooth and nail, didn’t want to be on a psychiatric unit. They take away everything. They take away all your personal goods. Um, you’re in with other people. It’s just not a comfortable place to be when you’re feeling terrible. So at one point in time, I think I stayed two nights. Um, cause yeah, cause it happened on a weekend. So I had to stay Saturday night and Sunday night because the psychiatrist wasn’t in until Monday. So on the second night, a nurse pulled me aside on the ward and she said to me, I’m not supposed to tell you this, but I don’t think you’re bipolar and I don’t think you should be on all this medication, especially the high dosages that you’re on, especially at your age. I was 21.

Thal

Wow. So how many years since the first diagnosis?

Laura Lockhart

That was, that was probably like… it probably wasn’t even a full year since that first diagnosis. So I was still on the lithium and everything. Um, I can’t even remember what she looks like, but thank goodness she came into my life. So she told mw you’re over 18, you can refuse your medication. I don’t recommend you refuse it all. I suggest you go with half tonight. And then we’ll wean you from there. So that’s what I did. I immediately found a new psychiatrist who did all the testing. No, I’m not bipolar. However, it was still just more drugs, more drugs, more drugs, more drugs. Yeah. So that continued for the next 20-23 years.

Thal

Wow. Okay.

Laura Lockhart

So yeah. Okay.

Adrian

Yeah. At this point, it sounds like there’s awareness and even like a desire to get better, like, because you were seeking help so that wasn’t there early in your life. Um, what did you try? So in those 20 years, I imagine you must have tried many things, tried different modalities or techniques. What were some of the stuff that you were trying?

Laura Lockhart

Um, there was always a strong urge to get better. I was always jealous. Like I remember being in grade two or grade three and finding out that one of the kids at school saw a therapist and I was immensely jealous, but I never had the nerve to ask my parents. Um, I never thought they’d, they’d let me for some reason. I don’t know why. Um, and so when I finally started seeking help, um, I went the route that I knew. So I went the medical route. I went to my doctor who sent me to a psychiatrist. Um, I tried, so I tried many different, um, I tried CBT, DBT. Um, I did two inpatient programs, one through a psychiatric out in Oshawa and then one out in Guelph. Um, both inpatient one was eight weeks and one was 12 weeks where I lived there the entire time. Several different outpatient programs through the hospital. I tried a suicide program through a day program through a hospital. Yeah. I was seeing a psychotherapist, but probably I hadn’t tapped into any of the psychotherapy modalities, um, just all that, all the psychiatric stuff. And it wasn’t working for me. Um, yeah. But I knew there was something in me that could not accept that this was going to be my life, that I was not meant to be more than what I was at the time, which was a mess.

Thal

And, um, and so then you met Gabor?

Laura Lockhart

Yeah.

Thal

Okay. And what changed?

Laura Lockhart

Um, so in order to go to the retreat, I had to come off all my medication, um, which he cautioned me about. He did say, now, based on your history of suicide, you really want to have a discussion with your doctor about it, um, because you can’t do Ayahuasca on these meds. So my doctor was very open to it and very supportive. Um, he didn’t necessarily believe in Ayahusca. Um, but he was more inclined to let me go to a warm country where it would be sunny where I’d be in therapy circles. Um, so he was very open and he gave me a weaning schedule and I came off my meds.

Thal

And that’s amazing because you’ve just been doing the sort of mainstream psychotherapy modalities and the medical, um, circles. And so, and then you went from that to right away Ayahuasca.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah, it was a true calling. Like it was like I, I had to get there. Financially I didn’t know how I was going to do it. Um, my mother didn’t like the idea. She didn’t, A psychedelic in a strange country with a doctor, didn’t sound reputable to her. My dad was actually very supportive and said, what have you got to lose? And it was actually, um, they’re divorced now, but the two of them came up with the funds to help me get there. Um, so that’s how I got there.

Adrian

Could you describe the program a little bit and when we’re perhaps even your experience flying in, what was that journey like? I mean, it must’ve been… that alone, probably we could dive into an entire episode, I imagine.

Thal

Yeah like, you know, your inner feelings.

Laura Lockhart

Um, so I was scared. I was thinking, what am I doing? Am I a crazy person. So I didn’t follow the weaning schedule that my doctor gave me. I decided that, oh, I’ve missed these medications before many a times, you know, when you couldn’t get to the drug store or whatever. Oh yeah, I’m good. I don’t need to wean. And I went cold Turkey. Never do that. So I ended up violently ill for many weeks. Um, I landed in the hospital twice for IV because like for IV fluids, because I was so violently ill, they had to put me on a drug that they give chemo patients for the nausea. And at the time I’m not putting two and two together because it’s been a couple of weeks since I’d come off the medication. So I’m not telling them, oh, I’ve come off all this medication. I’m just telling them I’m not on any medications, so they’re not able, because I’m not giving them the pieces. They’re not able to put the pieces together. Um, so having been violently ill for several weeks, the thought of going into the jungle and vomiting was not appealing. It’s like, no, I’ve done that. Thank you. Um, and I was going alone with people I didn’t know I’d never met them. Um, I had only really talked to Gabor twice, so I didn’t even know him at the time. Um, I knew I knew about his, um, his episode on the Nature of Things with Dr. David Suzuki, A Jungle Prescription. So I had watched that, but I didn’t even delve into the research on Ayahusca or get to know much about it because the more I learned, the more nervous I became. So in order to do it, I had to like not investigate it. I had to just go blind.

Adrian

A leap of faith.

Laura Lockhart

Leap of faith. Um, the journey, the journey was chaotic. Um, so I left Toronto. They had to de-ice the plane, uh, because of the, when the plane was late getting to my connection, um, I might’ve missed the, the connecting flight. I meeting people on the connecting flight that are going to the same retreat so that we can travel in the other country together. So at least I don’t have to travel in a strange country completely alone, but I might miss my connection. So we land at the exact same time that my connecting flight is supposed to be taking off. And the flight attendant tells me they’re not holding the plane. They’ve already started booking the hotel rooms. So now I’m starting to like, okay. So I connect with one of the women that I’m supposed to meet. She’s already on the other plane. She’s asking them, uh, she can’t get any information. I get off my plane feeling somewhat defeated and um, somebody turns to me and says they’re holding the flight. Run! So I book it.

Thal

Wow.

Laura Lockhart

And I’m not very fast. [Laughing]

Adrian

In slow motion.

Laura Lockhart

I slow motion book it. And I’m rounding the corner in the terminal only to learn that I have to get on one of those trains to take you to another terminal, which you know, just like this is not booking it in any way, shape or form. But I’m booking it. The second I land my butt in that seat, the plane takes off. Like there is no time. It’s like land take off. So I made my flight, my luggage did not.

Thal

Wow.

Laura Lockhart

So I land in this very tropical country in very humid weather in my jeans and sweatshirt because I’ve come from Toronto where it’s snowing and my luggage hasn’t made it. Then we have to take a water taxi to the actual location that we’re going in. Getting off the water taxi, I fall into the ocean in my jeans and sweatshirt with nothing to change into.

Adrian

Welcome! [laughing]

Laura Lockhart

Welcome. Welcome to your Ayahuasca journey. Um, my luggage doesn’t come till the next day. It comes the next day. Thank goodness I didn’t have to wait a couple of days. Um, but I arrive at this Ayahuasca retreat center, which is very remote. Um, I remember walking the dirt path with donkey poop and having to take your shoes off and like crossing a river. And I just start to cry. I’m like, what am I doing? What have I come for? I want to go home and I want to go home now. Thank goodness the people at the retreat are very kind and very loving souls and they find me raggedy clothing to wear so that I can get out of my wet jeans. And uh, the woman I actually bunk with was able to provide me some clothing so that I could, you know, be comfortable. Um, but at this point in time I’m thinking, what have I done? Like I’ve left my comfort, my home, my friends, my family, everything to come here to this strange place that’s… And it was the most life changing experience I’ve had.

Thal

Amazing. Yeah.

Adrian

For people who might not be familiar with the Ayahuasca tradition, the plant medicine, could you share a little bit of background?

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. It’s not for everyone, but for those that are feeling the call, it can be helpful. I also didn’t just do Ayahuasca. I returned from my Ayahuasca journey and went into intense therapy.

Thal

So maybe we can, yeah. Integration.

Laura Lockhart

So, um, so what was the question again?

Thal

Um, so for our listeners who don’t know, what Ayahuasca is, can you, can you say about it?

Laura Lockhart

So it’s a plant medicine that’s been used in the Amazon for centuries for healing. Traditionally, just the Shaman would drink it and then work on the, the people, but it’s transitioned somehow that now the people and the Shaman drink it. Um, I had ensured that I was doing it in a very safe space because there are unreputable Ayahuasca retreats out there. There are unsafe Ayahuasca retreats out there. I made sure that I was going to a very reputable and very safe place to do this. It is a psychedelic, um, so you are vulnerable. Um, I did it. The lineage that I worked in, um, my Shaman works in is the Shipibo lineage and ceremony was kept very traditional. Um, the chants aren’t just, so it’s a whole ceremony. It’s a six hour ceremony. It’s done with intention. Um, every chant that comes out of their mouth is done for a specific reason to help move the energy to help in the healing process. It’s not a random, these people are highly skilled and know what they’re doing. Um, what else can I say?

Thal

How many, like how many times did you drink it, if you want to go into that?

Laura Lockhart

So my first retreat, which was highly transformative for me was three ceremonies. However, the difference between my retreat and a lot of other retreats, um, is that I had processing with Dr. Gabor Maté. So there were 25 or 26 participants and every day for hours on end, we would sit in a circle and process. And when one person works, everybody in the circle works. Yeah. That’s how powerful the circle is. Um, so there were nights where it had gotten dark and we had to do processing by flashlight because that’s how long we had been sitting in the circle. So from right after breakfast until bedtime, we were in that circle with the exception of a few breaks here and there for lunch and dinner. Um, a very regimented diet. Um, you can only eat specific foods. Um, in respect for the plant. Um, the way that’s been described to me is that you wouldn’t pour salt and sugar on your garden. So in respect for the plant, you treat your body with that same respect. Um, ceremonies were six hours long done at night in the dark. Um, very powerful, very painful. Um, some very difficult moments. Some times I didn’t think I was going to make it through to the other side. Um, and so very grateful when I did and the difference even after just the three ceremonies. The small things, very small things, which are actually big things. Um, for example, my dentist had been trying to get me to floss for 40 some years. Well now I was 38 at the time, so probably like 30 some years. And I came back from my Ayahuasca journey and I just started flossing every day. Like why? I don’t know. But I did. Um, things like I started wearing makeup again, um, because I had gone into such a depression where all I did was just wear sweatpants and didn’t do my hair. I didn’t do anything. I just throw on my sweats and left and I started taking care of myself again. Um, there’s still some self care that needs to come into place. I’ve still got some difficulty in that area, but, uh, immensely different. Um, but like I said, I didn’t just do ceremony and come home and go back to life as it was. I did ceremony and came home and the first thing I did was the Landmark Forum, um, which was also very powerful. Um, there some complications with it and the sales pitch, but the material itself I found very powerful. Um, and then following that I went into a trauma treatment center. Um, so not a western medicine, a holistic trauma treatment center. Unfortunately no longer exists, um, where I was there for four or five sessions a week for quite some time, um, where I had different modalities. So I had psychotherapy, I had massage, I had acupuncture. Um, where it wasn’t just like, okay, let’s look at your thoughts. Let’s look at the energy in your body. Let’s look at where you’re carrying things. Let’s look at where you’re holding this trauma. Um, yeah.

Thal

And, and so you were open to trying all these things after Ayahuasca like, it’s, it truly is a transformation considering that prior to Ayahuasca, it was, you know, mainstream, nothing holistic. And now it’s like there’s this openness.

Laura Lockhart

Some of the difficulty prior to the Ayahuasca journey was that I didn’t have the funds to try the holistic modalities, which I was starting to feel drawn to. I didn’t quite know that I believed in it yet. Um, but now I’m a firm believer.

Thal

Wait, no, that’s a good point too. Right? That the funds for the, like the fact that it is expensive. Yeah. Like some people are turned away because of the not having funds.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. So, um, I had looked into psychotherapists before, but I simply couldn’t afford it. Um, and I had, I also have fibromyalgia, so I had explored, um, just about everything I could at that point in time with regards to fibromyalgia. And what I was really getting was that I needed massage and I needed acupuncture and I needed things that I just couldn’t afford.

Thal

Which would make sense if it’s OHIP covered. But that’s a different conversation.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah, we could have a whole other episode.

Adrian

I wanted to go back, you mentioned the intensive integration circles, the processing with Gabor, for like entire day. What does that look like? What is processing? And because you had experience of psychotherapy, it’d be nice if you can maybe draw comparisons of the Ayahuasca experience to what traditional psychotherapy sessions are like, how are they different?

Laura Lockhart

Okay. Um, so, okay. But when you come out of an Ayahuasca ceremony, because it’s a psychedelic, there’s a lot of funky things that have happened in the night and it’s very easy to get lost in the, the visions and the experience and forget that there is very pertinent messages in those visions.

Thal

Um, especially when they’re negative and you know, they take you back to the specific experiences in childhood or whatever.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. So, um, what that looked like was often Gabor interrupting us and stopping the story. Um, and bring us back to our bodies and bringing us back to the emotion. Okay. So what was the emotion when you were seeing that? What were you experiencing in that time? And essentially bringing us back to the emotion that that whole experience was inviting us to feel, which would have been repressed at the time of the trauma. So it may have looked like somebody re-experiencing their trauma in the ceremony or it may have looked like something completely different that just brought up the same emotional state. But there was a lot of, you know, anger and fear and shame that people were given a safe place to go into and feel the things that they’d repressed in their bodies.

Thal

So he, so he was engaged during the ceremony as well? Like, or this is after the ceremony?

Laura Lockhart

This is after the ceremony. Yeah. So, um, after ceremony we all go to bed. It’s like three, four in the morning. Um, and then we wake up the next day and that’s when we do the processing. So each person speaks. So all 25 or 26 of us speak to our experience the night before.

Thal

Just speaking about the ceremony itself because there are two different perspectives, like some people see it as, so this is the contents of my psyche that are amplified during the ceremony or some people see it as this is the medicine, you know, teaching us and um, giving me stuff that I need at that moment. And maybe it’s combination of both. Um, I don’t know, but it’s just something that, you know, I was thinking about.

Adrian

What do you think it is? In terms of your experience.

Laura Lockhart

In terms of my experience, I would say it’s both. So it would show me things that my psyche was doing. Um, so I would often get stuck in and it was excruciatingly painful and this is my life, but where I would have the same three sentences repeat over and over and over and over and over, over and it was intense and it was rapid and I couldn’t stop it. That’s my rumination. That’s my negative self talk, rumination. And it was on full blast. Like it was intense. There were times where I thought I was going crazy. Um, it also showed me my anger and unfortunately at the time I wasn’t ready and I repressed it within ceremony. So I had this vision that came up and it was like black silhouettes and then flashes of red, like a very violent red. And I had no idea what it meant. And then I spent the next six hours in shear excruciating sub- humanlike pain that I’d never experienced before. And I was calling for them to get me charcoal because I wanted this medicine out of my system. Um, and unfortunately that got miscommunicated in the ceremony and they thought I was asking for tobacco. Um, but it was Gabor the next day that said that I didn’t want to do the work. He said that was you wanting somebody else to do the work for you. Very much my experience in life.

Thal

Wow.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Um, yeah. So, and it wasn’t until my seventh ceremony that that lesson came back to me and I got, I very much got that I was resisting my anger and that’s why my pain came up and that the more that I resist feeling what I needed to feel, the more I was going to experience my pain.

Thal

And, and so then your pain or your anger was strong enough or your resisting mechanism was strong enough that it was still overriding the ma, the medicine basically.

Laura Lockhart

Uh-huh. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was a, and they kept telling me not to resist. Like that was, I mean, what else can you tell somebody? There is nothing else to tell somebody other than stop resisting and they’re telling me in a very gentle way. Um, but I was annoyed. I was like, what do you mean stop resisting? Like how do I stop resisting? I don’t know how to stop resisting. What am I? So I thought that I was resisting the pain, so I would lay there in ceremony and try and like breathe and like, okay, allow the pain, allow the pain, allow the pain. Well, no, I had to allow the anger and that’s what I wasn’t allowing. And I had no idea. I had no idea.

Thal

I mean, I definitely relate. They’re like, you know, when someone tells the old just like, go or stop resisting and like, what do you mean? Yeah. You’re like holding, holding on tight with your body.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Yeah. But at no point in time, in any of my previous therapy had anybody addressed the fact that I wasn’t allowing my anger. I had no idea it was new found information to me that, oh, you mean I have to feel this? Yeah.

Thal

And so then the processing with Gabor helped you deepen that.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. So, yeah. So the next morning I had no idea it was anger even. When I told him about the vision and then I had no idea what it meant, he’s like, that sounds like anger. And I did the classic repression and denial and like dismissive. No, I wasn’t that angry as a child because, you know, we all had happy childhoods. Um, and he said he, he may have said, bullshit. I can’t remember exactly, but basically he said, that’s not true. Um, and he said, you can’t tell me. He said, how did you feel when your mother was hitting you? And that’s when it occurred to me that I had a murderous rage in me and that I was suppressing that. Not that you go out and murder people.

Thal

No, absolutely.

Laura Lockhart

But that you kept in touch with, with that so that it’s not stuck in you anymore. The feeling that you felt as a child and you were not able to express or..

Adrian

This first experience you had it sounded like a lot came up, a lot of insights, perhaps experiences. What did you do with all that new stuff? Coming back from that trip? You mentioned you started flossing, there were some behavior changes. What else could you add in terms of the experience re-entering back to your life?

Laura Lockhart

I really just had to learn to learn, to feel what I hadn’t been feeling and that took a lot, a lot of work. Um, it sounds so simple and really it is, but it’s so complicated. Um, I remember laying on the table with the act, my acupuncturist, and he was, and I could feel the mechanism happen where it’s like I was feeling it, feeling it, feeling, and then I was like, oh, I’ve just repressed it. I don’t have control over that, but I was doing it. And so bringing that awareness into my, into my body, not just into my logic but into my body was very important and that took a lot of work and a lot of safety. I needed a lot of safety and..

Thal

And trusting yourself.

Laura Lockhart

Trusting myself, trusting those around me that they might be giving me some difficulty information, but they’re doing it from a very loving place. Yeah.

Adrian

How did your relationship with Gabor continued to evolve after the first ceremony?

Laura Lockhart

Um, he really became a mentor. Um, he doesn’t like the word therapist. Um, but he became a, I don’t even have the words for it. Um, he just became like the catalyst for my seeing what I needed to see, which I wasn’t seeing. And there were times where he wouldn’t talk to me unless I had gone and felt what I was feeling. So he would say, you’ve asked for help, I will help you. But what I want you to do first is to identify the emotion, sit with it, allow it, have compassion for it, hold it and then we’ll talk. Which was frustrating but important because my way of not being with emotion was to reach out for help.

Thal

How did that look like? Did you have like a specific practice that you were doing or just…?

Laura Lockhart

Um, I didn’t know I was, I was winging it. Um, they don’t tell you how to feel your emotion. They just tell you that you have to feel it.

Adrian

Go look it up.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah, go, go look it up.

Thal

Cause I do that too. That’s why I’m asking you. I’m like, how do I feel this? I just Google it. [laughing]

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Um, yeah, so I didn’t know. I was really just winging it and um, what it would look like for me was to just sit quietly and be with whatever was there. Um, and in actual fact, I got a lot of training in my therapy on how to do that, which was like identifying the sensation in the body, allowing the sensation to be there. Um, even inviting it to get bigger, a lot of meditation around, around my pain. So instead of trying to suppress my pain, trying to numb my pain, inviting it, welcoming it, and letting it be there and learning that it was, it was actually a lesson that I had been trying to numb for decades.

Adrian

You mentioned landmark forum as one of the things that seem to kind of immediately proceed the, your experience. Uh, what did you get out of that, that training?

Laura Lockhart

That I was creating a lot of my own suffering and I was doing it with the, the, the, the story in my head, the, the dialogue that was going on in my brain. Projecting a lot of my own stuff onto people. Um, making meaning out of things that didn’t mean anything. Um, and living my life as though what I believed about myself was true when in no shape or form was it?

Thal

Yeah. That it’s like static and rigid, that it does not change that, you know, oftentimes we see ourselves and our personalities as these things that I’m this or I’m that.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. And that in order to, in order to excel in life at whatever it was that I wanted to do, that I had to step out of the fear and that I had to act anyways. And that really showed up in a lot of my, um, my therapy because like I said, I couldn’t afford this therapy. So I had to find ways to get it, and that meant showing up and just trusting the process that I was in the right space and that if it was meant to happen, it was going to happen. And if it didn’t, then it wasn’t the right, the right path for me. Um, it also showed up in school. I couldn’t afford school. I, I hadn’t worked in years. Um, and, but as long as I stayed, stuck in the story of I can’t afford this, I was never going to do it. So I stayed stuck in that for many years. Um, and then I really, that teaching really stuck with me that like, just make it happen. Don’t, you may not know how you’re going to make it happen, but just make it happen. And so that’s what I did is that I applied to the school with no idea of how I was going to pay for it. And I even got the first bill. Please deposit this amount of money by such and such a date and still had no idea how I was going to pay for it. But I, I took the risk and I threw my hat over the wall cause I had to go get my hat then. And just, um, if, if I wanted it bad enough, it was going to happen and that I would work extra hard to make it happen.

Thal

And so, okay. So when will come in and you, you did the first retreat and then landmark and then you went again and did another retreat?

Laura Lockhart

So, um, yeah, so the first retreat, landmark, um a Trauma Treatment Center in Toronto. Um, and then another retreat and then.

Thal

How was it different then from the first one? How is it different than going back to the plants again?

Laura Lockhart

Um it was, it was different in that I was different. Um, the resistance was still there, but it wasn’t as strong and it wasn’t as potent. Um, so I was able to allow a lot more than I had the first time. Um, which meant I got a lot more out of each ceremony because I was allowed, I allowed the medicine to work more than I had prior.

Thal

You let go.

Laura Lockhart

I let go in some, in some cases. Um, there were times where, um, I was in excruciating pain again, um, both emotional and physical. And I remember the helper on the retreat telling me, you know, ask the plant to teach you in a gentler way. And I did. And it amplified. Um, so that was the lesson that I needed at that point in time for whatever reason. Um, yeah. So after that second retreat, um, I went to another retreat that wasn’t a medicine retreat. Um, but it was all about like the ego constructs that we live in. And, um, and I spent a month at this retreat, I’m learning to let go of the beliefs and projections and things that I put on myself and other people and then back to Toronto for more therapy. And then, um, so school came about two and a half years on the journey.

Adrian

This is training to become a psychotherapist?

Laura Lockhart

Yes.

Adrian

What, what inspired you to make that decision to become a therapist for others?

Laura Lockhart

Um, I had always wanted to be, um, I remember probably when I first started at universities that was my goal. It was that I wanted to become a psychologist, a PhD psychologist, and have my own private practice. Um, thank goodness that didn’t happen because I wouldn’t have known how to help anybody at the time. Um, but because my mental health derailed, I was able to get my undergrad, but there was no way I was going to be able to do a Masters or a PhD. I mean, I couldn’t even function hardly at all. Um, so it was really a dying dream. Um, and then it wasn’t until I met, um, the psychologist at the Trauma Treatment Center, Jesse Hanson, and he was the one that suggested to me, well, there’s other routes. Um, how about have you looked into psychotherapy training because that might be more up your alley, um, where you have to do your own work in order to learn to become a psychotherapist. And that really appealed to me, but again, I was stuck with the, that construct if I can’t afford it. So couldn’t make it happen. And it wasn’t until about two years later that it finally clicked in that I’m not going to make it happen if I just stay stuck in this story of I can’t afford it. Yeah.

Adrian

So, so what, what happened the last minute you said you didn’t have the funds and the due date was coming?

Laura Lockhart

Yeah, I had an anonymous donor. Um, I still don’t know who, um, they approached Jesse at the, the Trauma Treatment Center and decided to donate the money, but they did that based on what they were seeing in me, in my growth.

Thal

That’s amazing. So yeah, it’s amazing. Then what happens when we drop the stories that are not serving us.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. And when we’re on our right path.

Thal

Absolutely.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah.

Thal

Soul path.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah.

Adrian

Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s, it’s such an inspiring story. I imagine you hear that often when you, when you share with others, but at the same time, I’m careful not to paint overly, you know, a rosy picture because this is reality. I want to ask you, what are some challenges you still face today on the path of healing?

Laura Lockhart

Um, so I still, I still struggle with relational difficulties. Um, I still isolate a lot. Um, I still struggle with self care around food. I still have a tendency to binge eat and binge eat junk food. Um, getting my eating under control has been very difficult. Um, I still struggle with my body. Um, so I still have a weight issue. Um, I still have difficulty, um, getting into my body in movement, any kind of movement is still very, very difficult and very painful for me. So yeah, it really does. Like hearing me speak really sounds like I’ve turned the other page and everything’s glowing, but it’s not. Um, but it is immensely different than what it was. So I no longer trying to kill myself. I’m no longer, um, the thoughts still come up, but I no longer attach to them. Um, so now I know that I don’t want to do that. Um, before I used to think that I really truly wanted to die, but now I just, the thought will come up and I just think, and I don’t want to do that. Like I respect myself now.

Thal

So it’s this, you know, very deep level of self compassion that you’ve accessed through healing.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Yeah.

Thal

And it’s important then to understand that healing is not a rosy path, but it’s one worth taking. And you know, I’m also touched by your story and it’s, you know, it requires a lot of courage.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. And healing isn’t linear. Like as long as I heal, I will still go back into those old patterns every once in a while and expand and contract and then, but my contractions get a lot smaller. And my expansion, it’s got a lot bigger and I mean I’m able to function.

Adrian

Laura what’s your vision for, for your, I mean one, one the one hand for the future of psychotherapy but, but also at a personal level for yourself?

Laura Lockhart

So my vision for, um, psychotherapy is that more of the people start to recognize these alternatives. Um, and psychedelics obviously in safe places with proper assistance, um, that we really open up to just new ways of doing old ways of doing things that are becoming new again.

Thal

Yeah. Thanks for mentioning that.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Um, yeah. And for myself, my vision is to, um, work with people that are me. That are very much like me. Um, yeah. People that have tried everything are determined to get better, won’t stop at anything to get better because that was me. I was going to knock on every door in the city.

Thal

And I think one of the really important things to understand is someone listening to this and struggling through the same issues feel like they’re the only ones going through that at that moment. And it’s just knowing that that’s not true is helpful too.

Laura Lockhart

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not true. Um, there’s so many people out there like, yeah. So, yeah.

Adrian

Thank you so much, Laura. What an incredible story and thank you. I also want to mention for people that might be interested in reaching out, um, personally, uh, they can, they can contact us on the podcast and we can definitely direct them to you. Yeah. And there might be some inkling to reach out to Gabor as as well, but he doesn’t take client s and he’s not doing his retreats anymore, so, yeah.

Thal

Thank you. Thank you, Laura, for sharing your story with us today.

Laura Lockhart

Thank you.

#15: From Ecstasy to Remedy – MDMA Therapy with Anne Wagner

May 5, 2019 00:53:03

As the so-called third wave of psychedelic renaissance unfolds, the notion of self-improvement has taken a new and deeper meaning. After a long slumber, the field of mental health is waking up to the therapeutic potentialities of these powerful tools in relieving symptoms of depression, PTSD, addiction, and fear surrounding terminal illness. Targeted towards beginners, Michael Pollen’s book How To Change Your Mind, published in the summer of 2018, propelled the conversation around psychedelics to the forefront. Whether it is MDMA, LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca, or others, the potential for consciousness expansion and psycho-spiritual growth is immense.

The FDA recently granted “Breakthrough Therapy” Designation to MDMA for the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and is currently in phase 3 clinical trials. Popularly known as a recreational drug, and as the main ingredient in ecstasy, MDMA is paving the way for the possible near-term legalization of psychedelic therapy.

On this episode, we talk to Anne Wagner, a clinical psychologist and one of the lead investigators involved in the MAPS funded clinical trials of MDMA + cognitive-based psychotherapy for PTSD. Anne tells us how she ended up working in the cutting edge of psychedelic science and what these studies offer for the future of mental health. In her clinical practice, Anne applies a cognitive-behavioural and mindfulness-based approach to therapy and she also offers preparation and integration of psychedelic and non-ordinary state experiences. We got to connect with Anne at her new clinic, Remedy in Toronto.

Highlights:

MDMA + Cognitive Based Conjoint Therapy for PTSD
Leading Psychedelic Research
The Future of Mental Health

Resources:

Listen:

Poem Inspired by This Episode

Full Transcript

Thal

Welcome Anne to the show.

Anne Wagner

Thanks so much for having me.

Thal

Thank you.

Adrian

Yeah, we’re sitting in your space, Remedy in Toronto. No, actually that’s one of the things we do want to ask you about is to learn more about the work that you’re doing here. Um, but before we dive into your current work. We tend to like to go backwards and just learn about your journey and how you got interested in the intersections between psychology, psychedelic science and specifically the MDMA studies and how did that all come together for you?

Anne Wagner

Sure. So it was not a planned path, that’s for sure. Adding these things together. So I knew pretty early on that I wanted to pursue psychology. So within, you know, the first two years of my undergrad degree, I decided that psychology was something I found really interesting. And the thing that I liked the most about it was just the breadth and depth that you could have within one field. So you could be, um, learning how to run studies. You could be seeing clients, you could be investigating all kinds of different things that have to do with the human psyche and our experiences in the world. So, uh, that to me, the ability to be able to have a life where I got to ask lots of questions and be constantly learning and changing seemed really appealing. So I started that in my undergrad and then decided that, you know, clinical psychology was probably the right route for me. And I started Grad school at Ryerson in Ryerson University in Toronto and I started that in 2007 so I started my master’s and my PhD at Ryerson and then my internship at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. And then I went back to Ryerson and did a five year post doc and it was during that post doc that I really, uh, developed a really strong love and interest in working with trauma. And that would have been something that I had always been interested in. And I’d done work in my PhD, uh, working with my mentor Candice Monson, uh, around treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder. And then in my postdoc that really got honed into how do we work with and improve the treatments that we have or potentially make new treatments for PTSD. So, and the reason why I found that so compelling was that the treatments we have, they worked for some people some of the time. And that’s amazing. When they work, you see such incredible change for folks, especially with PTSD. Feeling like that feels permanent or like people are totally changed from how they were before. And, um, the idea that someone can really have their world open up and be able to have a new future after that to me was absolutely compelling. And, um, you know, I tell the story sometimes that my, I think my interest really started in that given my grandfather was a World War II vet and he worked with Veterans Affairs Canada as an under administer of veterans affairs. And, um, he really, really believed in supporting the veterans in terms of their experiences. And at the time, you know, we didn’t have a word for PTSD after World War II, but he knew that there were lots of people who were struggling after their experiences. So I kind of grew up understanding that this was after really challenging and traumatic experiences oftentimes that people have no choice whatsoever in the circumstances in which they’re placed, um, that we owe our brothers and sisters, you know, the ability to help work through, move forward and heal in different ways. So, um, that all kind of started to resonate and coalesce when I was in my post doc and, uh, I was working with Candace on some studies around this treatment that she developed a called Cognitive Behavioural Conjoint Therapy for PTSD. And so it’s a couple’s treatment and that to me was so interesting and fit with my values in terms of being able to work interpersonally with folks and seeing the impact not just on the person, but on their relationships, on their families, on their communities, in terms of how trauma impacts us. So we were doing work with CBCT and testing that in various ways when Candice was approached by the team at MAPS around it, which is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies about potentially collaborating. And the MAPS team had been looking at the use of MDMA for the treatment of PTSD, uh, for many years at that point, over a dozen years. And, uh, with, you know, the steps before that having taken, you know, another 15 before that. So there was some conversations and I was really lucky to just kind of parachute into this conversation right at the beginning with Candice and we decided to be open minded and give it a go. And so, um, the really exciting piece for me was that I have no idea about psychedelic use in psychotherapy at that point. Like zilch.

Adrian

What year was this?

Anne Wagner

Uh, this would have been in 2013. So I went from literally no knowledge to now running clinical trials with MDMA. And it’s been the most impactful transition for me, um, in terms of my own trajectory and growth and as both a person but also as a researcher and a clinician. So a lot has changed in six years, that’s for sure. And, uh, yeah, at that point, that’s when we started to work on this pilot study of Cognitive Behavioural Conjoint Therapy plus MDMA for the treatment of PTSD. And that started off by Candice and I getting to have our own MDMA therapy experiences through a study for therapists that gave them the experience of understanding what that feels like. And that for me was the thing that convinced me that this was going to be worth my time and energy and putting a lot of love behind this work. So yeah, that was the starting point. That session would have been in spring of 2014 and it’s been kind of history since then in terms of getting this going. So, yeah.

Thal

Um something I’m thinking about when you’re talking about PTSD, um, a lot of people connect it only with veterans. Granted veterans have, you know, they go through a lot and they see all kinds of horrible scenarios. But there are also different types of PTSD, complex PTSD. Um, there are people that, you know, due to childhood trauma have PTSD. So maybe we can, if you can just talk about PTSD a little bit.

Anne Wagner

Sure. Yeah. So PTSD arises from a whole number of different traumatic experiences in people’s lives and they can be, it can be for repeated experiences like a childhood abuse experiences. It can be from repeated exposure to adverse details. For example, first responders are prime for that experience. It can be from single incidents, like it could be from an assault or an accident or witnessing something really traumatic happening to somebody else. Um, and it can be, as you said, for veterans from the experiences of war. It can be from displacement, it can be from all kinds of different aspects of conflict. So yeah, the idea behind PTSD is it can come from all these different things. Um, but it often looks the same in terms of its presentation in terms of what it looks like and people feeling like their need to avoid things that remind them of the traumatic experience. Whatever that experience is. There’s the re-experiencing of thoughts and memories associated with the event or events. There’s a hyper arousal that goes alongside of it. So that feeling in your body of being constantly on alert or constantly activated in some way. And then there’s numbing that goes alongside of it as well. So you may have either really strong emotions and really challenging cognitions or you may end up having a numbed out experience where you’re not feeling much at all. And so all of those, that constellation of symptoms, if you will, or things that happen, they all form to make up PTSD. And, uh, the differentiation, you know, between complex PTSD and PTSD, um, is, you know, it’s one where I think people find it really helpful to talk about complex PTSD, to think about the extent of the experience that they’ve had. Um, and what would I find in the research is actually that the treatments that we have for PTSD as just PTSD work for complex PTSD as well. So I think that, um, for me, I, I would get questions around complex PTSD and what I think about that, and you know, I’ve, I’ve done some publishing actually around challenging the construct.

Thal

That there is no real difference.

Anne Wagner

Right. Yeah. And it’s simply because if we really whittle it down, what matters most…

Thal

Is the experience.

Anne Wagner

Is experience. But it’s also, if we’re going to differentiate, it’s usually because we want to figure out how to best help and best treat. And so therefore, if how we treat would be the same, why would we differentiate between the two? I mean, I’m a fan of parsimony, so.

Thal

I like that. Yeah.

Anne Wagner

Yeah. So he was very open to however, however you want to interpret your experience, 100%, that’s, that’s in your hands. Um, but how it guides how we formed treatment, I think is a different way.

Thal

I think the main thing is that because a lot of people who are suffering from PTSD and they’re not veterans, they don’t legitimize their, you know, they feel like, you know, or, or they perceive like, “do you really have PTSD?” Like you, yeah, we’re not in a war zone or something like that.

Anne Wagner

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I do think that helps in terms of, or can I notice it more actually in terms of, uh, folks having a broader understanding of their experience if they feel like they identify with one term another and yeah. I think whatever means to be able to own and accept the experience is useful. Yeah.

Adrian

I put a flag down when you mentioned, um, having that experience with, with Candice the first time you were sort of, sort of convinced that you wanted to do this research.

Anne Wagner

Yeah.

Adrian

Are you comfortable sharing what that experience was like?

Anne Wagner

Sure. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Okay. So the experience of having an MDMA therapy session, uh, so the way it was designed in that first, the thing I participated in, we had one active session and then one placebo session of course that you don’t know which one you’re going to get first and uh,

Adrian

But you’ll pretty quickly know which one… [laughing]

Anne Wagner

Yes. Well, I figured it out, although it was pretty funny about an hour in, I wasn’t, I was not perceiving any effect at that point. And I thought to myself, I was like, “you know, this is probably placebo. All right. Like I’ll have to wait.”

Thal

“Oh, no it’s not!”

Anne Wagner

Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like within 10 minutes. You know, it’s funny, everyone else had seen my blood pressure spike, but I had not seen the, um, the recording side. I had eye shades on and they were all, you know, waiting. And then I’m like, wow. Yeah. Um, so that experience for me was, uh, it was so interesting. It was the most impactful therapeutic experience I’ve ever had. It felt like I was able to check in and all these areas in my life really quickly where without any extra layers on top of it. Like it took away my own judgment and shame and guilt around things. And it let me literally just go through all the areas of my life and go, what do we think about this? What do we think about this? How about that? And it felt like I wasn’t particularly intending to check in these areas, but it allowed me to do that. And it felt like I reached my conclusion easily and readily. And even if that conclusion was ambivalence about something, I was like, great, I’m ambivalent about that. That’s the answer. So it let me not second guess a lot of things that were happening in my internal world. Um, and I found that, that the effects of it lasted for a really long time. I mean, it, it literally that session I felt like I was integrating and processing for, you know, weeks if not months later. But the overall impact for me has been, yeah, well it really, it changed my life and a lot of ways, not just because of the therapy, but also what it had then led to. And I think that that sense of that deep investigation and exploration can really help to shape your trajectory. So, um, yeah, so that was, and I was actually great, really grateful to have a placebo session next. Cause then I just got to integrate the whole experience a few days later. Talk about it going like, wow. All right, so all this stuff happened in that session. I get to chat about it. Now.

Adrian

I guess at that point then, um, what were the next steps after having the experience and then you can ask to go go ahead with the research. Was that the deciding point to, to move along and then to move ahead.

Anne Wagner

Yeah, it, yeah, it certainly was for me, I think we went in pretty open minded, like, you know, curious to explore it, but using that as a, uh, a test to see did we think that this might have value or could you see this working? Um, and so after that we ended up.. Initially we were thinking a lot about, okay, so we’ll go into the experience. So she had these questions in mind and we should think of that. And then as soon as I got into the MDMA experience, I was like, forget it. I’m just having my own experience. I’m not thinking about methodology for study. Right. We basically, we both chose to use that week just to have our own experiences and think through that. And then with time, you know, I quickly made the decision that I wanted to use this as a tool for therapy, but we then gave ourselves a bit of space to then actually start thinking up what that would look like in terms of a treatment and a protocol and things.

Thal

So, so you guys combined the MDMA therapy with uh, you said CBCT. That’s right. It, can you talk to us about that please?

Anne Wagner

Sure. So, um, we use, so CBCT Cognitive Behavioural Conjoined Therapy for PTSD is a 15 session treatment that’s designed for two people to go through the treatment together and uh, those two people could be in any way in relation with each other. It’s generally speaking, is romantic couples who choose to go through treatment together, but it doesn’t mean it has to be. Um, and so within that treatment folks are taken through kind of three main phases of therapy. The first phase is really understanding PTSD. Um, doing some psychoeducation about what PTSD is, what it might look like in your relationship, how it’s impacting you as well as talking about, uh, how anger and aggression can impact the relationship and just beginning to understand what those look like in the relationship and building some skills to counteract that and cope with. And then moving into phase two, we go more specifically into other skill building. So communication skills, like paraphrasing and some problem solving skills and beginning to approach things that the couple has been avoiding. And so we designed these approach tasks with the couple to help them be able to live a life of approach where they’re, you know, engaging together and doing things that they may not have been doing otherwise. And then the third phase specifically moves into making meaning of the traumatic event. And so thinking about areas where each of them, and together they may be stuck around the trauma, um, and thinking through some core themes that are related to trauma. So acceptance and blame are a big one. A control, power, trust, esteem, intimacy, um, post-traumatic growth. So using those. And then, uh, so that’s the framework of CBCT. And then what we did when we added MtMDMA to it was, we put it in strategic places in the protocol where we thought, uh, you know, if we were going to want to boost the effect of what we’re doing, we’d maybe want it in these two places. So one was in right after they’ve learned the communication skills. And so being able to have those skills as a bit of a template to be able to work with the experience together, both during and after. And then again, we placed one right in the heart of the trauma processing. So they’d started some and then we put the MDMA session to allow them to see what else could unravel in that moment and then work with them to integrate it after.

Thal

I think he had mentioned that it’s not only romantic couples, right. Have you guys had different types of dynamics?

Anne Wagner

So in the pilot with the MDMA, it was only romantic couples. Uh, we were open to, the recruitment was open for any type of diet, but it was only couples who came in. Um, but then in case studies that we’ve worked with outside of that study, we’ve seen, um, parent-child, we’ve seen, um, good friends go through it together and trying to think who have had siblings. Yeah. So there’s been a few different constellations.

Thal

And, and do you think the impact of the therapy would be different if it was just singular? Like, just like the person that’s suffering from PTSD without the conjoint.

Anne Wagner

So, I mean there are other therapies…

Thal

Yeah, cause I’m just thinking about the difference between both. Yeah. Um, but I, I do see the benefit of the relational aspect.

Anne Wagner

It’s definitely a different frame in which to conduct the therapy and, um, you know, the individual treatment. Um, for example, Cognitive Processing Therapy, which is going to be the next pilot study that we’re running with MDMA. Um, it is an individually delivered.

Thal

Oh, so you’re going to do that okay.

Anne Wagner

Yeah and the work that’s been done up until now, so, uh, that the MAPS team has been running, has been an individually delivered treatment and it’s with an inner directive supportive psychotherapy for PTSD. So not, uh, specifically one modality, but kind of allowing what comes up. Uh, so partly one of our goals with doing the know the CBCT and now the CPT plus MDMA was to use treatments that have already been tested for treatment for PTSD. And to see when we add MDMA, do you have even broader or stronger effect? Uh, so they’re giving us a different starting point in terms of the evidence in which to see if it’s effective.

Adrian

I wanted to ask if the subjects who were part of that first pilot that you were involved in, were they diagnosed as treatment resistant PTSD? Have they tried other forms of treatment prior to the study?

Anne Wagner

Yeah, so in this, in the pilot we ran, they didn’t specifically have to be treatment resistant, but they all were. Um, so it was, it just so you know, it people are not necessarily jumping the gun to do this without having tried many different things. So yeah, everyone had had lots of different treatments in the past.

Adrian

I’m so curious. Um, yeah, there’s so many, so many questions. Yeah. I’m thinking a juicy place to dive into is their first experience, you know, if you can share with us perhaps maybe what their experiences were leading up to it and, and the, what the day looked like, when they had it for the first time?

Anne Wagner

Sure. So, um, so folks had some preparation ahead of time, so obviously they’d gone through a consent process. And lots of conversation about what this whole treatment was going to look like. And then they’d had some intensive days or a day and a half, basically of CBCT. So we squished the equivalent of five sessions into a day and a half of CBCT. Um, and so, and some of that day was in the morning of their MDMA session. So they were, uh, mostly quite nervous before their MDMA sessions. Especially a lot of them were either psychedelic or entactogen naive or the experiences they had had where like 20, 30, 40 years ago and you know, university at some point. Um, so never in this context and never with the presumption that they’re going to be talking about trauma. So, uh, yeah, so there was definitely anxiety ahead of time, which we work with and a lot of the partners were quite anxious too, cause you know, they really, okay,

Adrian

They’re coming along for the ride.

Anne Wagner

So yeah. And everyone went through with it and did it. And, uh, so the way the room is designed, when we were doing the sessions, uh, there would be two recliner chairs. And so the couple would sit in those recliner chairs and be able to either have the option of sitting up or lying back, not completely flat, but you know, quite reclined. And then the two therapists would be in the room with them and facing them. And then if people were feeling really activated and they want some support from the therapist, we had like small camper chairs that we would sit beside them on the recliner chairs. So, um, they could have, it’s a little bit space or closeness and, uh, they were close enough to each other that if they reached out, they could touch hands or hold hands or can choose not to if they wanted to as well. And so the way the day was, there really was no structure to the day other than, um, you know, we would encourage them to spend time as we deemed it inside, which means, uh, with headphones on, eyeshades on and just reflecting internally and that experience and other times where they’d be talking with us, talking with their partner in sharing the experiences that were coming up or reflections. Um, so, you know, we’d go through different periods of time inside time outside, and we learned how to better orchestrate interaction between the couple in terms of, you know, at some point someone’s ready to talk and the other one’s deeply in process with something else. So we would, um, we learned how to kind of check in with one or the other, maybe jot down a note and say we’d hold that, that thought for them. And they could go back inside and we’d raise it again when everyone was, you know, out in the room. Yeah. So that’s basically what it looked like.

Thal

What about the role of music.

Anne Wagner

Music plays a very important role and kind of assisting the process. So, you know, allowing for an arc in the experience and having, um, supportive music kind of at the beginning. And then active music as you kind of getting peak effect and then, uh, music that helps with resolution and closer to the end. Um, but you also need to, you know, we had, we were flexible with the music within it. So, um, Annie Mithoefer who is one of the investigators and she’s a great Dj. So she was our DJ for all the sessions, which I’m going to have to learn how to do when I’m running the sessions here and, uh, yeah, so both members of the dyad would have earphones on and we’d also have it playing in the room so everyone could hear the music. And so we had splitters to do that and then at times we turn the music off when they’re talking and yeah.

Thal

I was going to ask like do you turn off when they’re talking?

Anne Wagner

Yeah or turn it down. Just mostly so it’s easier for everyone can hear each other.

Adrian

How many couples were there in total in that study?

Anne Wagner

Yeah, so it was a small number. So we ran six couples through it and it’s really, originally we were thinking of going up to 10, but, uh, for a number of different reasons, including time and money. And, uh, but also the main reason was because our effects were looking very good. We decided to stop at six. Um, to be able to kind of had enough evidence to show we can do it. It’s feasible, it’s safe, people tolerate it and people improve. And as enough of a signal to say, we need a larger study. So in designing the larger study that would have a control condition.

Adrian

I imagine all the internal experiences vary greatly between participants. But were there any commonalities you guys noticed, um, in, in those, uh, in the six that you, you were sitting with.

Anne Wagner

Uh yes. I mean, one thing that I think was very interesting as someone who does a lot of trauma therapy with folks outside of a MDMA work is just how consistently people would go into their trauma memories and recount the experiences unprompted with MDMA. And so that was fascinating and I’d heard that that had been the case, uh, with the other studies, but that it, like clockwork would happen every time. And um, you know, it was no priming no asking people to go into the memory. We don’t even actually require that at all if people in CBCT to actively go over the memory. But it happened for everyone.

Thal

It’s like they went through the files of…yeah, amazing.

Anne Wagner

Yeah. That analogy is used a lot actually like putting files in a row and you know, I had that experience myself of like checking in. It’s like checking all the files and then other people with PTSD when they’re going through this you know, checking through the files, the memories. And so then the role of the therapist, um, is really the major role is pre and post the experience. Like during the experience of course you’re holding the space for the, for the clients, but it’s, it’s, it seems like from what you’re saying that it’s like, um, self guided in a way. Yeah. The MDMA session itself, we’re definitely there to hold space and to help when people are stuck. And so I think that piece is also very important. Um, and you know, sometimes when we think about like being non directive, in fact there’s moments where we’re actively working with folks in session to help the experience or if people are feeling particularly stuck in a thought or a memory we’re there to help them work through that and you know, gently, you know, be socratically questioning, you’re asking different things or exploring. But the massive chunk of that work is before and after.

Adrian

So what happened after the first session? What’s the next stage in the protocol of the study?

Anne Wagner

Yeah, so they’d gone through equivalent to five sessions of CBCT before and then they had the MDMA session and then the next morning we would talk about experience, integrate it a bit and set them up with out-of-session work for the following week. And then they would do the equivalent of four sessions of CBCT. In this case we did it over video, um, simply pragmatically, cause we’d all didn’t live in the same place. And then they came back together about three weeks later, I had another day where they did two sessions of CBCT and then they had a second MDMA session. Integrated that and then finished out the protocol, which was four more sessions of CBCT. So they received MDMA twice this whole thing. Yeah. It took about two months to get through everything.

Adrian

What were the results? Sort of dying to hear the summary of the findings.

Anne Wagner

So they are not published yet, but I can let you know. So we actually published a case study last week. Um, so that has the first results are out in the world.

Adrian

Congrats.

Anne Wagner

Thank you. Very exciting. It’s in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, so that’s good. Um, so yeah, overall the results were very strong. We had really good results for PTSD, both from the report of the person with PTSD, so their self report as well as the clinician rated report. And so that’s an independent rater. So not the people who treat them, it’s from someone who doesn’t know where they are in treatment and whatnot. And they also, we saw significant improvements in relationship satisfaction as well. And that was really interesting because not all the couples were distressed coming in. And I think that’s important because a lot of the time, you know, we think about actually how PTSD lives in relationships. People have to make sense of it and therefore, oftentimes they accommodate the other person as we all do in our lives. We accommodate the people we love. So it’s, you know, you’re trying to make it okay and especially when something’s not okay in a system, it creates a very difficult system. But that works for some people. And so that can be a challenge sometimes when things change, the system disrupts because everything’s been, you know, trying to hold tight to keep it together. So the fact that we saw improvement for folks who even already we’re starting okay. Which meant there might’ve been some accommodation was really interesting. Yeah. So more to come.

Thal

So it’s not really couples therapy, it’s, it was, it’s conjoined therapy, but um, that the, you know, the couple’s therapy is like that bonus part that came.

Anne Wagner

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean the way we structure it, I mean it really, it is a couples therapy. Yeah. It could be any version of couple that you think of. Um, but the idea is the relationship is actually the client in CBCT. So it’s not the person with PTSD, it’s not the partner. It’s the couple or the relationship. And having that be the focus is really useful. So that one person doesn’t feel like the other person is their other therapist or that they’re responsible for the person, they’re doing it together.

Adrian

Are you, are you able to share any of the self reports by the subjects, um, things that they shared with you, whether it’s during the study or afterwards that you might want to share with listeners?

Anne Wagner

Sure. So, um, I mean, people spontaneously had really incredible, you know, things that they wanted to say or share. And, um, I’m, you know, feeling like they’d gotten their lives back or that they felt renewed hope for the future. And, um, you know, in the session itself, you know, I had people say that, you know, this is really, it felt like they had gotten their marriage back or that they now have a sense of feeling connected. Um, I got an email a few months ago, which marked like a year since one of the couples had started the study and it was just a reach out of gratitude and thanks. And reporting that they felt like they had a completely different life and they were very grateful and that they just thought it was all really cool. So that was a really neat thing to receive.

Thal

It’s amazing. How rigorous was it for you like to go through the daily experience of going through the study and, yeah.

Anne Wagner

Yeah. It’s a labor of love doing the clinical trial, that’s for sure.

Thal

I can imagine.

Anne Wagner

It’s, you really have to want to do it. And, uh, I remember, you know, Candice once told me, this is not for the faint of heart. I’m like, no, it was very, very true. It’s a lot of details and a lot of planning. Um, it a ton of work for a little bit of data, but it’s in my mind, so worth it. And you know, the days when you sit in the sessions with folks, um, and you see them change right there in front of you and you were like, wow, this idea we had, I think it’s working like this. That’s unreal. Um, that feels, that feels pretty cool. And, uh, so yeah, it’s, it’s, I found working on this particular study to be incredibly inspiring and so that certainly helps drive all the rest of the work and is now shaped what I’m doing going forward,

Adrian

If I remember correctly, most of the subjects, if not all, had improvements in their symptoms of PTSD. How, how did they do afterwards? Post study? What was the timeframe for the follow up and checking in on them?

Anne Wagner

Yeah, so the vast majority, well, I mean, there’s only six couples. The majority, not everyone, uh, a resolution their PTSD, but most did and those gains were maintained through six month follow-up. So that’s the, the most, the furthest data we have. Yeah.

Adrian

That’s really cool. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we often hear a lot in psychedelic research and, and, and, um, just discourses the integration after these experiences. Can you share any wisdom that you might have gained from this study about how to better integrate or, or to tie back to their daily lives?

Anne Wagner

For sure. I think a big piece is that integration isn’t just like your next session with your therapist. Integration happens over time as you begin to put the lessons you’ve learned into action and it might shape your approach to something or how you feel in general. Or you might have an echo of it, you know, a year later and go like, oh, yeah, so it’s, it’s being open to that being the case, I think is the key thing with integration as you go forward. And we certainly saw that, you know, in some cases we saw people continue to make gains over the six months afterwards. And that for us was really interesting because that means that they’re still learning and growing. And that is ideal because you’re basically setting people up for a new baseline, a new place to start from. And that happens often when people find success with treatment without MDMA. Um, but it was particularly highlighted for me when the use of a psychedelic or entactogen.

Thal

I’m thinking about a psychotherapist listening to this wondering when will legalization happened. When can I start training?

Anne Wagner

It’s a good question. Um, so what is looking like right now? So all of the movement to have MDMA legalize as a treatment for PTSD? It’s, it started in the US because that’s where all of the studies have happened so far. It’s looking, we’re hopeful that it will be within the next few years that it will be legal. Because right now there’s a phase three study, which is a drug development study happening in multiple different sites across North America, uh, sponsored by MAPS. And they at that point they will, after phase three, it’s possible that MDMA will get the indication to be a treatment for PTSD. So that’s the doorway to it being legal. Um, and so the hope is we would quickly follow suit in Canada using the evidence for the US. So, I mean my fingers are crossed that it’s going to be within the next few years. Um, there is also in the states there’s something called Expanded Access where when things are demonstrating strong effect and people are at risk for death, that you can potentially be using um, a medication that’s still being investigated for specific cases to be used. So, uh, the training that’s happening right now for folks to become MDMA assisted psychotherapist is for this idea of Expanded Access or those of us who are studying it you doing through the research. Um, so that, I mean, could be as soon as later this year we’re expanded access could be available in some places, uh, in Canada. We’ve different regulations around that. So it may not be as straight forward, um, but potentially could still be a possibility. And then of course, I mean the psilocybin work is another area where, um, you know, we’re seeing fast movement in terms of potentially there being indications for treatment-resistant depression and other things. So that might be another area where we might be seeing the potential legal use of psychedelics and treatment.

Adrian

Yeah. I know everyone’s got their fingers crossed, right? It’s like, it’s, you know, it seems like this is the opportunity but also not to mess it up. And so it definitely, you know, important that this time around this renaissance that’s happening is to do it properly so that it is sustained.

Anne Wagner

Exactly. It’s extremely important that we don’t squander this opportunity over here. Uh, this, there has been so much work that has gone to this place and so many have been paving the way for this to be the case. And, um, I’m very conscious of just how measured we need to be and just how careful and thoughtful around all of this use.

Adrian

Can you talk about the other studies so that with the CPT plus MDMA that is.. Is it currently underway?

Anne Wagner

It’s in development right now. So I’m just finishing the protocol for it. Uh, so our hope is that we’ll be recruiting in the fall for that study, but that’s pending a bunch of different approvals that need to go through. Um, so that study design is very similar to the couple’s study. Um, it’s going to be, but it’s an individual treatment and using CPT. So cognitive processing therapy, which is one of the most widely used and most widely researched and has some of the strongest evidence for the treatment of PTSD. And it’s usually 12 sessions. And so right now we’re just, you know, we’re finding exactly where we’re going to place the two MDMA sessions within the protocol. Um, but it will likely have a similar structure in terms of having a masked dosing of treatment before the first time. Do you may session spread out over three weeks, second MDMA and then finish it out. And this time, not over video cause we’ll do it here in person.

Adrian

How is, um, how’s the recruitment for that? So how do people, uh, if they’re interested in joining the study or being a participant, how does that happen? How does that work?

Anne Wagner

So right now we’re not, we don’t have open recruitment since the study isn’t approved yet. Um, but if people are interested in it, uh, if it will be for PTSD. So it is specifically for PTSD and people don’t have to already have a diagnosis of PTSD because it will end up, you know, they will have to go through assessment through the study. Um, but they can always contact us at Remedy and, we have a contact us button on our homepage and can be added to a list to learn more. And so that would, uh, it doesn’t guarantee anything, but it just would allow folks to get updates as to, for example, when the study is starting to recruit or updates along the way as we get going.

Thal

Awesome. So maybe, um, then talk to us about Remedy?

Anne Wagner

Sure. Okay. So Remedy, um, it’s where we’re sitting right now. So Remedy is a center for mental health, innovation in Toronto. And, uh, the idea behind remedy was to have a home where research and practice really live together. And the idea that we want to be continually open to growth and exploration as clinicians, as researchers, as people who are working in mental health. And that includes our own growth as well as the growth of the field. Um, so the idea here at Remedy is everyone who’s involved as invested in the idea of innovating mental health. And that can be in a whole host of different ways. So, uh, for example, one of the ways we do that is going to be through MDMA research here. Uh, but also we have folks who are innovating how we manage a practice, how, um, you know, we run trauma-informed Yoga, how we do care for folks that’s integrating different types of treatments together. We have all kinds of different things. Someone is going to be writing, you know, pop psychology book based on evidence. So it’s innovating how we think about an access, mental health and, and thinking about it in a broader way so that we don’t feel stuck or stymied in how we do that. So we offer a clinical services, but also we do research here and we collaborate with different likeminded group to create a community who are all with the same vision.

Adrian

I imagine it’s part of the vision, um, to consider post legalization and what that might look like. Can you share a little bit about your vision for once it’s legal, what the clinic might look like and how it’s offered to the public?

Anne Wagner

Yeah, absolutely. So my vision for that will be, we’ll have basically two tracks. We’ll have our research stream, which will be running and testing interventions, uh, which you know, is where my love is there and that I’m also a clinician and I want to be able to offer this in terms of people being able to come in and receive MDMA psychotherapy for PTSD in the practice here. So it will be either people can participate through research or through being able to come in. And you know, have that treatment. So, uh, yeah, we’ll be set up here to be able to offer that given that war already going to be set up to run the research. And so we’ll be ready and opening our doors to that the minute it’s legal. So yeah, we’ve got a team here who, uh, actually I just took a team down to Asheville, North Carolina for the most recent MDMA therapist training and so we’ve got a team who are raring to go.

Thal

That’s awesome.

Adrian

I’m just imagining if, if you had infinite funding and resources from a, from a research side, what would excite you as far as future research studies that you might want to explore and go into?

Anne Wagner

I’ve already designed my next big one. So it would be a randomized controlled trial for the couples study. So it would be, um, CBCT plus MDMA in one condition and then with a placebo control and the other maybe a crossover design at the end. So, but that would be the, we really need to test it out with more people and more diverse sample. I think that was a massive thing is, you know, in the pilot study it was heterosexual Caucasian folks in that sample. And that is not representative of …

Adrian

The globe.

Anne Wagner

The globe. We are here in Toronto. And um, you know, I think particularly, I’ve done a lot of community work in queer communities here and I think, you know, expanding especially what that looks like in terms of our, you know, constellations of folks participating in the treatment and as well as the therapists that they, we have, uh, we’re really excited about what that’s gonna look like. And when we test it on a bigger scale, like what’s it gonna look like for everybody.

Thal

Yeah. It’s going to look very different. Hopefully it’s going to be legal very soon. It’s going to look different when it’s, you know, out there and different people are accessing it.

Anne Wagner

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Thal

Can’t wait. Yeah.

Adrian

Yeah. We’re super stoked for your work. I mean, you’re right in the trenches, so it’s, it’s a real honour actually. Yeah. To be, to be in your space and to get a glimpse of the journey so far.

Anne Wagner

Aww thank you.

Thal

Any more questions? Feel pretty good there. Yeah. Is there anything that you’d like to add, something that you have not been able to share in other lectures or other interviews?

Anne Wagner

Um, that’s a great question. I think, you know, it’s a really exciting time for this work. Um, I think it’s the, the possibilities for growth and exploration are also huge when it comes to psychedelics and entactogens and I don’t want to lose sight of that. And I think oftentimes when we are focusing so much on the clinical work and the clinical indications, that sometimes feels like maybe gets pushed to the side when, you know, there’s so many cultures around the world who’ve used psychedelics as forms of ritual, as forms of growth and learning and healing that, um, you know, this is not new. This is not new at all. I want to honor that.

Thal

In fact it’s ancient.

Anne Wagner

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Just so happens that we’re conceptualizing, it’s used right now with how we understand this particular version of how we present …

Thal

And in our modern context, which is fine.

Anne Wagner

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think I want to make sure we know that, that this, you know, while it feels “cutting edge” it is completely ancient. And this, we’re not, uh, coming up with new ideas particularly, but, uh, but really honored also to bring it forward into the here and now. So there’s that piece. Um, yeah, I think that’s a biggie. That’s on my mind.

Thal

Yes. And, uh, hopefully that will, you know, um, rev revolutionize mental health, which is, you know, the thing, you know, coming up now.

Anne Wagner

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think we have so much possibility there. You know, I do think we’re at a time where folks are far more reflective about their own internal world and the possibilities for that and that this might be one tool to really assist in that.

Adrian

I guess just one final thing to a, I’m reminded of, um, the way Michael Pollan shared just the excitement beyond the pathological use or, you know, addressing pathological, um, experiences and just for the betterment of, well-people, I think it was the way that he was putting it and I think yeah, starting to redefine mental healthy on sort of the, the sort of, the highly stigmatized, um, cultural perspectives that we have.

Anne Wagner

For sure. Yeah. I have hope that one day we’ll be able to offer, um, you know, MDMA assisted psychotherapy for couples, right? Just not because there’s PTSD, but because you know, people want to explore and grow together and understand the relationships and their dynamics or for individuals and you know, still thoughtfully and with precaution and all the good context of set and setting and a good container. But the idea that that would be a tool would be lovely.

Adrian

Thank you so much for your time today.

Anne Wagner

Thanks so much.

Thal

Thank you.

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#15: From Ecstasy to Remedy – MDMA Therapy with Anne Wagner

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